New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

General discussion about learning languages
Cainntear
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3467
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
Location: Scotland
Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc
x 8656
Contact:

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Cainntear » Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:17 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:
Picaboo wrote:Etymological knowledge is neither necessary nor sufficient for [url]acquiring[/url]vocabulary. It's on par with mnemonics or anything else that provides hooks, meaning and context to a word. It is somewhat effective to get the word in and out of memory early on, but you really only truly acquire a word by seeing/hearing it in many different contexts, and possibly, using it in many.



Research on this that's not Krashen?

You're pushing that a bit far, particularly given...
I've definitely found etymology to help me in acquiring vocabulary,

...that you've just talked about "acquiring" vocabulary in a way that Krashen would have belittled as "learning" with his own unsupported distinction between acquisition and learning.

There is a self-evident fact that most natives learn their vocabulary just fine without knowing their cognates. Even Latinate medical terminology in English is learned as pattern-based jargon, without necessarily referring back to Latin explicitly. How many psychiatrists think of their job title as being Latin? Neurologists? Physiotherapists? Podiatrists?

Have you got any allergies? Is the etymology of the word "allergy" necessary to get help, or to provide help?
especially when I already knew a related language and could relate it to cognates or similar etymological things in the other language.

Your "especially" implies that it's helpful even if you don't know a related language. Is it?

I have learned Spanish having learned French and Italian, and knowing cognates was a great help, but if I didn't speak French, would French words help or be a waste of time?
See, the thing is that there's a notion of a "source" language being correct, and I've deliberately not mentioned the common source language (Latin) because I don't speak it.

Learning something only to identify the cognates doesn't seem a useful way to spend time.
I think learning vocabulary through ways you find interesting does more than anything else.

Has anyone said any different?

As far as I can see, the discussion has not been about whether Arguelles's way of learning words works for him, but whether it's a necessary precondition for learning, as he reportedly claims.

I don't see what you're arguing against here.
1 x

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1341
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3098
Contact:

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby leosmith » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:51 pm

lichtrausch wrote:Are you saying that etymological knowledge in general has little or no impact on acquiring vocabulary?
Yes - I agree with Picaboo's response.
0 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

lichtrausch
Blue Belt
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:21 pm
Languages: English (N), German, Japanese, Mandarin, Korean
x 1379

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby lichtrausch » Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:18 am

leosmith wrote:
lichtrausch wrote:Are you saying that etymological knowledge in general has little or no impact on acquiring vocabulary?
Yes

Well that hasn't been my experience at all. My vocabulary in all my languages, including my native English, has significantly benefited from paying attention to etymology. I struggle especially with long, rare, opaque words. I looked up "deracinated" multiple times over the years and it only stuck after I learned its etymology. Whenever I heard "wax" (the moon), I had to stop and think of the phrase "wax and wane" to remember what it meant. Then I looked up the etymology and found it is cognate with German "wachsen", a very common word deeply embedded in my brain, and now "wax" is transparent and intuitive to me. Similar story with the word "centrifugal". Recently I again came across the word 径庭, which I had already looked up several times and forgotten. This time I paid attention to the etymology revealed by the characters and now the word is crystal clear in my brain (it means "completely different", literally "a footpath and a front courtyard"). I could go on and on.

leosmith wrote:I see the same argument used to try to convince people that Mandarin would not function if you dropped the characters and only used pinyin. It's the tired old homophone argument made to terrify non-speakers.

I'm not making the claim that Mandarin or other Sinosphere languages wouldn't fuction without characters. It's obviously wrong. I'm just saying that having huge numbers of homophonous morphemes has consequences for vocabulary acquisition. If I'm not mistaken, you're primarily interested in colloquial language, where Sino-Korean words are less prevalent. If you don't read advanced non-fiction texts, this issue with Sino-Korean vocabulary and homophonous morphemes might not be obvious (not a dig, we all have our own interests).

And as a final point about the significance of etymology, consider that many learners of Japanese and Chinese report experiencing that their vocabulary begins to snowball after having learned two or three thousand characters. That's the effect of etymology becoming transparent.
8 x

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1341
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3098
Contact:

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby leosmith » Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:45 pm

lichtrausch wrote:Whenever I heard "wax" (the moon), I had to stop and think of the phrase "wax and wane" to remember what it meant. Then I looked up the etymology and found it is cognate with German "wachsen", a very common word deeply embedded in my brain, and now "wax" is transparent and intuitive to me.
Ok, if you are saying every time I notice word X is like word Y, that's an example of etymology, then I probably shouldn't have said "yes". It's the systematic study of etymology, like learning 1-2k Chinese characters to learn Korean, that I think has little impact and would not be as effective as spending that time doing other things with the language.

lichtrausch wrote:If you don't read advanced non-fiction texts, this issue with Sino-Korean vocabulary and homophonous morphemes might not be obvious (not a dig, we all have our own interests).
I won't take that, or the comments you made about me muddling through the language, to heart. But you are mistaken if you think that homophonous morphemes aren't extremely prevalent in the colloquial language.

many learners of Japanese and Chinese report experiencing that their vocabulary begins to snowball after having learned two or three thousand characters. That's the effect of etymology becoming transparent.
2-3k is a reading threshold of sorts for reading Japanese and Chinese. The joyo kanji number around 2k for a reason. Their vocabulary began to snowball because they learned the alphabet, not because the etymology became transparent.

If you are having trouble making a word stick, studying its etymology is one of the many possible ways to fix that. But once again, this statement:
Alexander Argüelles wrote:classical Chinese characters - in order to understand vocabulary; you can't learn it without it
is clearly false.
2 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10461

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:39 pm

Arabic, Persian, Hindi, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Ancient Egyptian, and other Indic and ancient languages.:


Duration: 20:33
5 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

User avatar
Yunus39
Orange Belt
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:44 am
Languages: English (N)
Bangla (Advanced Low ACTFL 060723)
Spanish (dormant)
Ancient Greek

Wishlist:
Scots
Ancient Hebrew
Aramaic
German
Latin
Hindi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 20#p217017
x 464

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Yunus39 » Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:17 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:Arabic, Persian, Hindi, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Ancient Egyptian, and other Indic and ancient languages.:


Duration: 20:33

Looks like the only Bengali/Bangla resources he has are TEACH YOURSELF BENGALI by Radice and the Samsad dictionary. :cry:
1 x
Bangla Pages: 8382
Ancient Greek Pages: 2194
Scots Pages: 449

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10461

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:57 pm

What Language(s) am I Learning Now/Next?:


Duration: 4:58
7 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

zjfict
White Belt
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:59 pm
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (Inter)
German (Beg)
French (Beg)
x 130

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby zjfict » Sun Apr 09, 2023 12:13 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:What Language(s) am I Learning Now/Next?:


Duration: 4:58

Fascinating video, fascinating life. I never tire of watching/rewatching his videos.

Everyone, regardless of time and ability, has to come to terms with the width versus depth tradeoff question.
2 x

User avatar
Vordhosbn
Orange Belt
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 10:17 am
Location: New Zealand
Languages: English, German, French
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... p?p=194185
x 349

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Vordhosbn » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:45 pm

If anybody is interested in joining a class for the self-guided study of Sanskrit, it will become available soon through the Academy. There's a newsletter going out shortly with the details if anyone is curious and hasn't registered yet.

In other news, you can find a recent interview with the professor on the Guru Viking podcast:

Last edited by Vordhosbn on Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
3 x

User avatar
Vordhosbn
Orange Belt
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 10:17 am
Location: New Zealand
Languages: English, German, French
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... p?p=194185
x 349

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Vordhosbn » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:55 pm

leosmith wrote:This is possible. Maybe he really meant "you can't learn it to the degree I learn it without it".

Slightly late to the discussion here, but I would agree that this is what he really meant, even if he didn't explicitly say that in the video. I can cite him directly from the Old Forum:

ProfArguelles wrote:What do we mean by *need*? If you just want to converse, you obviously don't need to read at all. It is also true that you don't often encounter them in the modern literature or in letters that Korean friends might write to you or in the kind of informational brochure you might need to read at the airport. However, they are still omnipresent in the society. You cannot read a newspaper without them. You cannot read historical markers without them, let alone understand the signs and storefronts around town without them. Scholarly books in many disciplines employ them quite heavily, and older and classical literature is replete with them.
4 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kraut and 2 guests