New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

General discussion about learning languages
Beli Tsar
Green Belt
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:59 pm
Languages: English (N), Ancient Greek (intermediate reading), Latin (Beginner) Farsi (Beginner), Biblical Hebrew (Beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9548
x 1294

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Beli Tsar » Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:40 pm

RyanSmallwood wrote:
Beli Tsar wrote:Why do I need context to understand how to use the word 'elephant' or 'book' or 'screwdriver'?

For me context learning isn't just about picking up nuances of word use, it also helps me remember them more easily. Usually when I see a word in a few sentences and remember I've seen it in other sentences, is when it feels like my brain goes "oh this is useful, let's hold onto this". I can repeatedly listen to a word in isolation or a whole sentence, but it takes much more effort to get to "stick", although there are other ways of making those memories stronger. Of course this is partly speculation on my part, but my guess is that your brain needs to connect words to a other things you already know to not just throw it out as some random sound you heard.

Absolutely agreed, and I do the same thing - not with every word, but with the words that don't stick easily. But equally I've found that for me there's a danger with more transparent languages of over-engineering cards, spending too much time finding sentences for words that actually aren't, individually at least, that hard. And it takes much, much longer to review sentences cards, time that could be spent reading an actual book, so it's worth doing a bit of cost-benefit analysis on them. That's really what I was trying to get across - that though there are many, many caveats to be aware of, there actually is a place in language learning for just learning lists of words and glosses.

RyanSmallwood wrote:I've noticed when studying distant languages with little familiar vocabulary and new grammatical features, studying sentences made up mostly of proper nouns makes it a lot easier for the language to start taking root for me. Part of this is obviously by making the sentences more comprehensible, but I also think that taking words I already know the meaning of and seeing them used in the new language really solidifies the other features as conveyors of meaning for me. Even if I have a 100% word for word breakdown, general meaning, and grammar explanations of a sentence in an opaque language, it will take a lot more effort to absorb without familiar words thrown in.

Again totally agreed; I've learned to appreciate sentences more and more over time for this reason; and if I ever learn Chinese or Japanese I anticipate a lot of sentence cards! There's a reason that AJATT/Refold/etc. emerged, with such a focus on sentences, learning languages that are so distant from English. There are also other important reasons for sentence cards - they are really great for driving home grammar points. But if you are learning languages that come more easily than these, there's a real place for simpler, less time-consuming techniques.
2 x
: 0 / 50 1/2 Super Challenge - Latin Reading
: 0 / 50 1/2 Super Challenge - Latin 'Films'

Ruiseñor
White Belt
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:53 pm
Languages: spanish (N) english (a1) french (a1)
x 8

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Ruiseñor » Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:54 pm

zenmonkey wrote:
jeff_lindqvist wrote:Inefficient Language Learning Practices to Avoid or Change


What is problematic is when a leader in the language learning community criticizes a method without understanding how to use it. Of course, memorizing lists of words without any context is not more effective than memorizing the digits of pi.


The problem is that leaders have to say what we want to hear.

From my ignorance.
I think it is not understood that Arguelles speaks of "optimizing" the processes...
In Professor ARguelles' system, he suggests that with 15 minutes a day for a few months, achievements can be achieved that with others are years... "it is unbeatable" and it has to be very, very optimized...

The same happens with the dictionary, so necessary in many learning models. BUT NOT IN ITS OPTIMIZED MODEL, where the texts are in the target language and in your own.

Arguelles talks about time optimization, not that using the dictionary or anki cards (and I think he only talks about its use with "words") is not useful in many cases where it is not necessary to optimize it or where the characteristics of the student advise it.
Last edited by Ruiseñor on Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

Ruiseñor
White Belt
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:53 pm
Languages: spanish (N) english (a1) french (a1)
x 8

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Ruiseñor » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:15 pm

What I would like to consult:
It is whether the Arguelles model is presented as a "personal" model or also as a result of his experience with hundreds of students, the methods he has used with them and the results achieved.
1 x

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10462

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:15 pm

Instantly Improve Your Accent in a Foreign Language:


(I haven't watched it yet.)
0 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

galaxyrocker
Brown Belt
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:44 am
Languages: English (N), Irish (Teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge B2), French, dabbling elsewhere sometimes
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=757
x 3333

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby galaxyrocker » Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:28 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:Instantly Improve Your Accent in a Foreign Language:


(I haven't watched it yet.)


So much for me getting work done for the next half-hour. This is one I have to watch as it's what I need to work on most
0 x

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: California, Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - German (B2/C1) on/off study: Persian, Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 7030
Contact:

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby zenmonkey » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:31 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:Instantly Improve Your Accent in a Foreign Language:
(I haven't watched it yet.)


I did not find this to be particularly good or well-structured.
3 x
I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10462

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:34 am

Agreed. Maybe I wasn't that focused, but at points I thought he messed up his right and his left accent. Was one really better than the other? Maybe I have to watch it again.

Anyway, he has mentioned this before.

In one of his older videos there was a better (though exaggerated) example where he illustrated this in his native English. (If memory serves, he imagined himself being on a train that never left the station: "Hey, why we no go?"- first in his native accent, then in an imagined Central/Eastern Europe accent.)
1 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

zgriptsuroica
Orange Belt
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:52 pm
Languages: English (N), French (Advanced, especially reading), Spanish (Advanced), Brazilian Portuguese (Advanced), Japanese (beginner), Icelandic (just starting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17372
x 354

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby zgriptsuroica » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:28 am

I think his treatment of Anki, while presenting it out of context for us, might also be a case of us taking the advice out of context. It was, I'd note, included in the first two sections of his video that he said were geared towards a more typical language learner who just wants to learn a single language, be it out of necessity or convenience. While many of us have a somewhat more sophisticated use of Anki in our learning methods, for first time learners, they lack the experience to really evaluate the limitations of Anki or the role it should play in language learning. I would agree with him (and allowing him a more complete understanding of Anki than he really appears to possess) to an extent that it doesn't really matter how great your Anki setup is, whether you have sentence cards with close completion, native audio and pitch accent indications or whatever else, if that's all you're doing for your study time. Anki is, in my opinion, an excellent supplementary tool, but it can often be presented as the end-all-be-all of learning a language. For someone who's trying to learn a language for the first time, they may well waste a lot of time doing a ton of Anki reps and not actually engaging with native materials.

A few years ago when I was starting to mess with Japanese again, the canonical advice on /r/LearnJapanese seemed to be "Complete Genki I and II, start Tobira and begin grinding your way through the Core 5k deck, and then maybe, possibly, you might be able to begin engaging with native materials." There was an optional intermediary step of some sort of jouyou kanji cramming depending on which side you came down on in the argument about studying kanji in isolation or learning them as you go learning vocabulary. Now, I will not pretend that the Japanese learning subreddit is the pinnacle of sound linguistics and pedagogy, but it is pretty typical of first stop destinations for people who only speak a single language and say to themselves "Hey, I like lots of stuff from this country, maybe I could get more of the stuff I like if I spoke the language!" and decide to learn their first foreign language.

They seemed to have moved on since then, but people who started in that period could be a year or two into studying the language, doing 45 minutes or more a day of Anki, and still have yet to really engage with native materials to any serious extent. In that sort of environment, yeah, if you only have 45 minutes to spend, don't use it all on Anki instead of actually using the language.

That said, the way it was presented lacked nuance and his replies to comments seemed to confirm that he only has a superficial understanding of what Anki can do. The way in which he dismissed people who ask him about it also left a bad taste in my mouth, like they were some sort of well-meaning idiots who didn't realize how much they annoyed him. Considering his stature within the community, I would hope he measures his words somewhat more carefully and shows consideration for differences of opinions, particularly on topics he doesn't fully comprehend.
6 x
Genki I: 0 / 12

User avatar
tangleweeds
Green Belt
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:09 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Languages: English (N)
beginner: Irish
clearing cobwebs: Japanese
on the shelf: French, Latin
wanderlust: Norwegian, Vietnamese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=705
x 1226

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby tangleweeds » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:10 pm

The cat gets larger in every video. :shock: :o :lol:
9 x
Neurological odyssey is going better! Yay!

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10462

Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:40 pm

Should You Plan to Become a Polyglot?
4 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests