New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Raconteur » Tue May 23, 2023 9:53 pm

While, of course, everyone is entitled to have their own opinion regarding the method/approach/direction of this particular summer course… I’m a bit taken aback by all the additional, mean-spirited commentary. A guru with people (presumably gullible dummies, right?) “fawning over them like the Dalai Lama.” A sell-out influencer “convinced that their platitudes are nuggets of wisdom.” “Convincing himself that he's selling his expertise, not selling out.”

Really, it’s all a bit much, no?

Regarding the price tag. Alright, so like 99% of all the help/advice/expertise Arguelles offered over the last 15 years is free and publicly available. His YouTube, newsletter, Q&A section of his website, forum posts etc. This body of work includes answering individual questions raised to him by the members of this very community (back in the HTLAL days). But now that he has a tiny 1% of his overall contribution behind some sort of a paywall, he’s a sell-out. Interesting take.

Frankly, have none of you vehement critics ever participated in any other form of paid education? I don’t know about you all, but I have at times paid a lot more for a lot less. Thankfully, sometimes others paid on my behalf… corporate seminars, anyone?

Also, why stop there? You might as well argue that any form of paid education (including whatever you “buy for £20-£30 in an academic bookshop”) is a con because Wikipedia and libraries exist. Who are these guru, sell-out “professors” writing books they demand us to pay money for anyway? I’ll just Google it.

Again, I’m not saying anyone has to agree with Arguelles on anything. You don’t have to like the pricing or the approach. I’m just questioning the framing presented by some of you.

Finally, here’s an insider’s perspective. I’ve been taking literature and theory courses at the Academy for a year now. Almost everyone who I started with last May is still enrolled. In terms of progress, it’s been the single, most consistent/fruitful year of language learning for me, ever. The classes are great, and the student community is great. But then again, what do I know… I guess I’m just a “fawning” sheep falling for a guru-influencer scam.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Le Baron » Tue May 23, 2023 10:40 pm

Raconteur wrote:Frankly, have none of you vehement critics ever participated in any other form of paid education? I don’t know about you all, but I have at times paid a lot more for a lot less. Thankfully, sometimes others paid on my behalf… corporate seminars, anyone?

That's not really the point, since to my mind it falls under the same banner and (is open to the same critique) as things like 'night classes' from institutions which aren't really highly-recognised universities or institutions. Some stuff is easier to pay for and worth it, even if it's sometimes only the resulting paper to advance oneself. I would ask: what is for sale? Because I watch these videos too when they're published (not always all way through) and I see things which have: a) been around for ages and predate Arguelles (that some people might have been encountering them for the first time once upon a time means little), b) are unproven pedagogy/opinion. I wanted to add a 'c' option to meet the 'quote in threes', but two seems enough.

If I want to listen to advice-opinions about language learning I can do that anywhere. I'm sorry, but I don't think Arguelles was a groundbreaking lightening strike in the language-learning world. I know a lot do, but I don't share that view. Which is why if someone says to me: 'but he commanded respect at HTLAL etc. Well yes, he has an impressive catalogue of studied languages, though the 'high proficiency' from that list is questionable to me. I don't know the fellow and I've never met him, but he seems to only ever speak English, which is a bad advertisement when one claims to know ways of making people accomplished in foreign languages. Maybe others who have met him know differently? What I see is an impressive autodidact with a highly personal system of learning, which can't possibly be transferred to the general learner and with this proposed '15 minutes etc' isn't being transferred because he learned by studying for 16 hours a day. I know the polyglot world is slightly unhinged and thinks it has developed magic solutions to language learning, so it's not surprising that lots of people buy into these things. We have the same with Steve Kaufmann, great fellow, talks at cross purposes with himself sometimes, changes his mind a lot, tells you that you can do one thing when we know he did something else for his core languages. Right now he is a self-fulfilling prophecy after having shaped his own image as 'the polyglot'. So he must tackle Korean and Arabic and Persian etc...and the results are patchy. And I sometimes think: 'Steve, calm down a bit man.'

Raconteur wrote:Finally, here’s an insider’s perspective. I’ve been taking literature and theory courses at the Academy for a year now. Almost everyone who I started with last May is still enrolled. In terms of progress, it’s been the single, most consistent/fruitful year of language learning for me, ever. The classes are great, and the student community is great. But then again, what do I know… I guess I’m just a “fawning” sheep falling for a guru-influencer scam.

Well I did say that the experience might be beneficial to some. Tell me though, what in the literature and theory courses have you learned that is unavailable anywhere else? Or for free by reading literature and looking at theory books?
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby rdearman » Tue May 23, 2023 10:50 pm

I haven't seen a problem yet, but I thought I would throw in a reminder of the rules preemptively. :ugeek:

Furthermore, please refrain from personal attacks on well-known polyglots, whether or not they have an account here. Especially anything bordering on libelous or defamatory remarks. Yes, some of them may overstate their abilities, but even the most skilled language learners may have trouble responding if they're put on the spot.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby tastyonions » Tue May 23, 2023 10:53 pm

Cainntear wrote:Incidentally, shouldn't this thread be called "New Dr Argüelles YouTube Series"...?

It seems to me that he always claimed the title "prof" because he was teaching in universities, but I don't think he ever taught in a North American university, did he? so the description "professor" was potentially just translationese. Certainly, you wouldn't get called "professor" in a university in any other Anglophone country unless you had very high status.

Also notable that if you are in a university in the UK or similar, you don't ever lose the "prof" bit... you just move to "professor emeritus" when you leave your chair. I seem to recall having a discussion about that when Argüelles lost his teaching position. Using the US system, a "professor" stops being called "prof" when they lose their job -- it's a US job title, not a simple "title" title. His YouTube nick is @ProfASAr, but his Wikipedia article doesn't mention "prof" at all, and on his own website, he doesn't use the title really, although he quotes students who describe him as such. It does make me wonder about whether he's been called out on using a title that he doesn't have any legitimate claim to....

Good god in heaven do you listen to yourself? Taking Arguelles to task for the horrible offense against credentialism that is allowing himself to be called “prof.” Hahaha.
Last edited by tastyonions on Tue May 23, 2023 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Le Baron » Tue May 23, 2023 10:54 pm

Who made a 'personal attack'? There is no libel here. This is a discussion about language learning methods, and what is real/probably not real. If it's going to be simply cut-off in all respects, then sod it I'll just go to another thread.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby rdearman » Tue May 23, 2023 11:14 pm

Le Baron wrote:Who made a 'personal attack'? There is no libel here. This is a discussion about language learning methods, and what is real/probably not real. If it's going to be simply cut-off in all respects, then sod it I'll just go to another thread.

I said there was no issues, just years of moderation of this site tells me this could go south. So just a gentle reminder. :D
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Le Baron » Tue May 23, 2023 11:16 pm

rdearman wrote:I said there was no issues, just years of moderation of this site tells me this could go south. So just a gentle reminder. :D

I trust years of experience. So with that I will heed the reminder.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Cainntear » Wed May 24, 2023 12:46 am

Raconteur wrote:I’m a bit taken aback by all the additional, mean-spirited commentary. A guru with people (presumably gullible dummies, right?) “fawning over them like the Dalai Lama.” A sell-out influencer “convinced that their platitudes are nuggets of wisdom.” “Convincing himself that he's selling his expertise, not selling out.”

Really, it’s all a bit much, no?

I think what you're missing here is that the conversation has extended beyond Argüelles to the wider Internet polglottery world. Both myself and Le Baron are bemoaning an overarching tendency to soak downwards.

For me, it's a big problem that we talk about "influencers" because we create an illusion of them being in control, but they're really slaves to the Almighty Algorithm -- thou shalt produce one video a week, thou shalt not stop producing videos lest we stop sending viewers your way.Thou shalt say something the audience like every time -- thou must not take them out of their comfort zone.

I believe we've both expressed a concern that this *appears* to be having effects on Argüelles, and that's something that would be better dealt with by addressing the points. Crubh "heretic!" and shooting the messenger won't get you anywhere v

Regarding the price tag. Alright, so like 99% of all the help/advice/expertise Arguelles offered over the last 15 years is free and publicly available. His YouTube, newsletter, Q&A section of his website, forum posts etc. This body of work includes answering individual questions raised to him by the members of this very community (back in the HTLAL days). But now that he has a tiny 1% of his overall contribution behind some sort of a paywall, he’s a sell-out. Interesting take.

This is my point about influence vs influenced. The system has been created that promises that if you work hard, you will be recognised and rewarded, but they've devalued the bread and butter to the point where people do stupendous amounts of work for free, and then have to charge large sums of money for very little in order to break even. YouTube is a folks errand, but if you get stickers into it, you continue to feed into the monster than gets Google millions of dollars in advertising revenue but didn't pay the rent for the overwhelming majority of creators.

I personally do not blame people who get suckered into believing the hype -- I blame the people who create the hype to start of with.

Frankly, have none of you vehement critics ever participated in any other form of paid education?

Yes.
Why do you ask?

Also, why stop there? You might as well argue that any form of paid education (including whatever you “buy for £20-£30 in an academic bookshop”) is a con because Wikipedia and libraries exist. Who are these guru, sell-out “professors” writing books they demand us to pay money for anyway? I’ll just Google it.

That's the exact opposite of my point. I'm saying that he doesn't appear to be claiming to teach them anything other than how to not need a teacher. I'm saying that the broader influencer market pushes this notion of not being a teacher, and I'm surprised to see a professional teacher go down the same route. To be clear: you are mischaracterising me when you say "why stop there" because I'm actively talking about the need for teachers.
Again, I’m not saying anyone has to agree with Arguelles on anything. You don’t have to like the pricing or the approach. I’m just questioning the framing presented by some of you.
no you're not --you're challenging the framing that you've imagined.

Finally, here’s an insider’s perspective. I’ve been taking literature and theory courses at the Academy for a year now. Almost everyone who I started with last May is still enrolled. In terms of progress, it’s been the single, most consistent/fruitful year of language learning for me, ever. The classes are great, and the student community is great. But then again, what do I know… I guess I’m just a “fawning” sheep falling for a guru-influencer scam.

But here's the thing... You've waited till the end to pounder with a "Surprise!"-type revalidation, but you did that after misinterpreting and misrepresenting us, so it falls a bit flat as we aren't going to care what you say. If you had opened with this, it would have led us to understand your misrepresentation as the result of you being emotionally hurt by what you thought we were saying, and that child have given you some leeway. But instead we've taken your comments as personal attacks.
Last edited by Cainntear on Wed May 24, 2023 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Cainntear » Wed May 24, 2023 12:51 am

tastyonions wrote:Good god in heaven do you listen to yourself?
do you listen to yourself?
Taking Arguelles to task for the horrible offense against credentialism that is allowing himself to be called “prof.” Hahaha.

Taking me to talk for for the horrible offense of suggesting people might try using accurate credentials rather than overselling themselves?

I would add "Hahaha" but (a) I don't see any joke and (b) I am not rude enough to laugh at someone as a means of belittling them and their views.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Raconteur » Wed May 24, 2023 1:22 am

All this tireless deconstruction is very impressive, and would certainly make Derrida proud... but sadly, I'm not that interested in spiraling further down this particular rabbit hole with you all.

I took the courses, and I see the value.
I recommend it.
If you're not convinced, I can live with that.
Nothing more to add comrades, apologies for not hitting the ball back.

Rac out. :lol:
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