New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

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Re: New Prof Argüelles video and survey

Postby SGP » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:03 pm

Serpent wrote:Last year I had dinner with espejismo and his Argentinean friend who was visiting Moscow. The latter asked how many languages I'm learning and I said "a couple dozen" :lol:
In the professor's questionnaire I got to 30, of which I "know" 28 :D (my Yiddish and toki pona are pretty much useless)


Didn't know about yourself speaking/understanding toki pona. As for me, I recently started re-learning it.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:09 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I must be the only one around here... I just don't see the point of this data/information.

Okay maybe Professor Argüelles is simply curious, and that's really probably what it amounts to. However, and with all due respect (I really like his learning methods, enjoy watching his videos, feel I share a love of certain course brands, enjoy hearing about how his children have acquired/learned languages etc), but I just don't see how this information is useful. To categorise language learners? To put them in boxes? To know you're likely to fit into the common or uncommon categories... and why is that useful? All in all my behaviours won't change based on such a survey and its results. I'll continue to learn the way I learn, regardless. It must be simply that he was curious, I'm almost sure it is that (and maybe he even said so and I didn't pay attention). He's less obsessive about learning languages it seems nowadays and is seeking more of a balanced life, so perhaps this is just fun. :?


Take a simple conclusion that he posits: most polyglots were raised as monolinguals. If this is in fact true, the idea that monolinguals have a harder time than others in learning languages would be incorrect. It's food for thought.

Overall, there are a lot of valid criticisms to the survey, it's pretty informal, it has selector bias, control issue and other various methodology problems (he clearly hasn't worked out statistical significance...) but qualifying the characteristics of any group of learners may result in changes in attitudes towards learning tools, methods and attitudes.

It's never about the individual - it isn't about you or me.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Chupito » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:55 am

MacGyver wrote:I don't see the point of this either, and regardless the sample size is surely too small to draw any meaningful conclusions.

As for "polyglottery" what is the point of it? Sure as a hobby, wonderful. But its not going to yield the same professional opportunities as studying to be an engineer, lawyer... or becoming C2 in one or two languages.....

The two are not incompatible; on the contrary, I would venture that the vast majority or quasi-totality of polyglots have a great command of at least one or two languages. It's not like people are choosing to be polyglots instead of learning one or two languages to a high level of proficiency.

MacGyver wrote:
David1917 wrote:I'm not sure the point either, though I also don't really consider the only point to an endeavor being its applicability for the job market (as I struggle to justify pursuing a humanities-based PhD). He does talk a lot about the "polyglot" as the ideal teacher of foreign languages to the "normal" learner. The sage of all things language as it were. I think people put undue emphasis on the native speaker as the best teacher (see: "Teach English in China!" advertisements), and perhaps this is his call to action for a paradigm shift.


I don't agree with the idea that a polyglot would be better than a native speaker to be honest. I would rather learn Korean from a native speaker who as learnt 1 or 2 languages to a high level rather than from a Spanish speaker who as knowledge of 12 other languages, including Korean, to varying degrees.


I would too but you made modifications to the scenario David917 was talking about. In the examples David917 was talking about, the "Teach English in China" advertisements, the native speakers who are hired to teach are often monolinguals. The issue he points out is not simply valuing native speakers; it is undue or excessive emphasis on the native speaker to the point where it becomes the only criteria. It's the attitude of "No training or education in education or any subject related to language acquisition? No experience in teaching? Never managed to learn a foreign language yourself? Not a clue about the L1 of your students? Doesn't matter, as long as you are a native speaker, we will hire you." In that scenario, I would prefer the Spanish polyglot with an excellent command of English to the monolingual native English speaker and I would prefer someone trained and experienced as a good English teacher over both - although the native speaker can make an excellent assistant, tutor or conversation partner and the polyglot has a lot to teach self-learners and would also be a great tutor or mentor. Each has something to bring to the table.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby MacGyver » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:59 am

Chupito wrote:The two are not incompatible; on the contrary, I would venture that the vast majority or quasi-totality of polyglots have a great command of at least one or two languages. It's not like people are choosing to be polyglots instead of learning one or two languages to a high level of proficiency.


Quite a few do. Plenty of examples of people on youtube who happily learn dozens of languages to A2 or even A1 level only.

Chupito wrote:I would too but you made modifications to the scenario David917 was talking about. In the examples David917 was talking about, the "Teach English in China" advertisements, the native speakers who are hired to teach are often monolinguals. The issue he points out is not simply valuing native speakers; it is undue or excessive emphasis on the native speaker to the point where it becomes the only criteria. It's the attitude of "No training or education in education or any subject related to language acquisition? No experience in teaching? Never managed to learn a foreign language yourself? Not a clue about the L1 of your students? Doesn't matter, as long as you are a native speaker, we will hire you." In that scenario, I would prefer the Spanish polyglot with an excellent command of English to the monolingual native English speaker and I would prefer someone trained and experienced as a good English teacher over both - although the native speaker can make an excellent assistant, tutor or conversation partner and the polyglot has a lot to teach self-learners and would also be a great tutor or mentor. Each has something to bring to the table.


But its not a zero sum game. Its not polyglot or monolingual. Besides, in the case of monolingual English teachers, the students learn English from an (Chinese/Korean/Japanese etc) English teacher and the English native provides the polish. Thats not 100% accurate, but roughly speaking anyway. Its not a valid comparison really.

You say you would prefer a Spanish polyglot in that case, ok sure, but whats the difference compared to a bilingual Spanish speaker?
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Chupito » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:34 am

MacGyver wrote:
Chupito wrote:The two are not incompatible; on the contrary, I would venture that the vast majority or quasi-totality of polyglots have a great command of at least one or two languages. It's not like people are choosing to be polyglots instead of learning one or two languages to a high level of proficiency.


Quite a few do. Plenty of examples of people on youtube who happily learn dozens of languages to A2 or even A1 level only.

Those are not valid examples of polyglots without a high level in at least one language because those people are not polyglots, they are posers. A polyglot, by definition, is a person who can speak several languages and while speak is a vague term, A2 or A1 doesn't qualify. Out of people who are polyglots - not people who pretend to be -, the vast majority speak at least one or two of their foreign languages at a high level. Just take a look at this forum. Or perhaps prof. Argüelles touches on it in his survey.

MacGyver wrote:
Chupito wrote:I would too but you made modifications to the scenario David917 was talking about. In the examples David917 was talking about, the "Teach English in China" advertisements, the native speakers who are hired to teach are often monolinguals. The issue he points out is not simply valuing native speakers; it is undue or excessive emphasis on the native speaker to the point where it becomes the only criteria. It's the attitude of "No training or education in education or any subject related to language acquisition? No experience in teaching? Never managed to learn a foreign language yourself? Not a clue about the L1 of your students? Doesn't matter, as long as you are a native speaker, we will hire you." In that scenario, I would prefer the Spanish polyglot with an excellent command of English to the monolingual native English speaker and I would prefer someone trained and experienced as a good English teacher over both - although the native speaker can make an excellent assistant, tutor or conversation partner and the polyglot has a lot to teach self-learners and would also be a great tutor or mentor. Each has something to bring to the table.


But its not a zero sum game. Its not polyglot or monolingual. Besides, in the case of monolingual English teachers, the students learn English from an (Chinese/Korean/Japanese etc) English teacher and the English native provides the polish. Thats not 100% accurate, but roughly speaking anyway. Its not a valid comparison really.

Yet it is often how the selection of English is treated in the real world : being a native speaker and having a degree in any subject are the only two requirements. That's the kind of emphasis which is criticized as excessive and undue and as something to combat.

I am not criticizing the cases where being a native is one aspect that is considered among several.

MacGyver wrote:You say you would prefer a Spanish polyglot in that case, ok sure, but whats the difference with to a bilingual Spanish speaker?

I don't speak Spanish myself yet. If the Spanish polyglot spoke a high level of French, I would choose them over the bilingual Spanish speaker if all other things were equal (same level in English, same aptitudes as a teacher), because they could provide more complex explanations in a language I understand, especially at the beginner stage, as well as understand how my language differs from English and the resources available to me, thus provide insights directed specifically at French learners. Their extended experience in language learning may also enable them to provide more advice on learning. This is more relevant for self-learners though.

Of course, in the case of a Spanish-English bilingual teaching English to a French native speaker, there is enough commonalities between Spanish and French that it doesn't matter as much. This would be more flagrant with another example, for instance, a Spanish polyglot with a high level of English and Korean teaching Korean native speakers vs a Spanish bilingual person with the same high level of English and no knowledge of Korean teaching Korean native speakers.

That is assuming all things are equals. If the Spanish bilingual is a native speaker of English while the Spanish polyglot isn't, then I would chose the native speaker, which I think I mentioned already.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby MacGyver » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:31 am

Chupito wrote:I don't speak Spanish myself yet. If the Spanish polyglot spoke a high level of French, I would choose them over the bilingual Spanish speaker if all other things were equal (same level in English, same aptitudes as a teacher), because they could provide more complex explanations in a language I understand, especially at the beginner stage, as well as understand how my language differs from English and the resources available to me, thus provide insights directed specifically at French learners. Their extended experience in language learning may also enable them to provide more advice on learning. This is more relevant for self-learners though.

Of course, in the case of a Spanish-English bilingual teaching English to a French native speaker, there is enough commonalities between Spanish and French that it doesn't matter as much. This would be more flagrant with another example, for instance, a Spanish polyglot with a high level of English and Korean teaching Korean native speakers vs a Spanish bilingual person with the same high level of English and no knowledge of Korean teaching Korean native speakers.

That is assuming all things are equals. If the Spanish bilingual is a native speaker of English while the Spanish polyglot isn't, then I would chose the native speaker, which I think I mentioned already.


Thats a bit of a red herring. What if it was a Spanish-French bilingual person? The point is, what does a polyglot know that someone who only speaks a couple of languages doesn't when it comes to teaching?
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Chupito » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:09 am

MacGyver wrote:
Chupito wrote:I don't speak Spanish myself yet. If the Spanish polyglot spoke a high level of French, I would choose them over the bilingual Spanish speaker if all other things were equal (same level in English, same aptitudes as a teacher), because they could provide more complex explanations in a language I understand, especially at the beginner stage, as well as understand how my language differs from English and the resources available to me, thus provide insights directed specifically at French learners. Their extended experience in language learning may also enable them to provide more advice on learning. This is more relevant for self-learners though.

Of course, in the case of a Spanish-English bilingual teaching English to a French native speaker, there is enough commonalities between Spanish and French that it doesn't matter as much. This would be more flagrant with another example, for instance, a Spanish polyglot with a high level of English and Korean teaching Korean native speakers vs a Spanish bilingual person with the same high level of English and no knowledge of Korean teaching Korean native speakers.

That is assuming all things are equals. If the Spanish bilingual is a native speaker of English while the Spanish polyglot isn't, then I would chose the native speaker, which I think I mentioned already.


Thats a bit of a red herring. What if it was a Spanish-French bilingual person? The point is, what does a polyglot know that someone who only speaks a couple of languages doesn't when it comes to teaching?

I don't think that was the point of the initial discussion or more exactly, the point I chose to comment on, which for me, was the over-emphasis on the native speaker as the perfect teacher. This was always the point of my posts. I think that's perhaps the crux of the issue: you and I are not talking about the same issue. We might not even disagree much over each of our issues (I don't think you are claiming being a native is the be-all-end-all of teaching and I am not claiming that polyglottery is of prime importance in teaching - I only explained the advantages a polyglot could provide because you asked me too, not because I made the claim that they were better).

To answer your questions anyway:

If the person was a Spanish-French bilingual person, then they obviously couldn't teach me English so that's moot. They would have to be trilingual Spanish-English-French or English-French bilingual (French native speaker who learned English). In the first case, I am not sure how many languages are necessary to be considered a polyglot, but having learned two foreign languages is already significant. In the second, being someone who learned the same language as me from the same starting point would be an interesting aspect. So in both cases, I wouldn't consider being or not being a polyglot a decisive factor and could go with either. I would view them as essentially equal candidates. I guess if everything was really a 100% equal and I was forced to pick, I'd go with the polyglot.

But I imagine you will consider those things red herrings. To answer your second question, like I said, I think being a polyglot would present an advantage mostly for guiding and advising self-learners. The advantage of their extended experience and passion for language does not matter as much in a more traditional classroom setting. With that caveat about context in mind, it is my personal experience, as someone who has learned only one language, that I don't have as much insight to offer as a polyglot.

I notice you asked me to pick in different scenarios and I did. You haven't yourself mentioned which you would choose to teach English and why.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby MacGyver » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:35 am

Chupito wrote:I don't think that was the point of the initial discussion or more exactly, the point I chose to comment on, which for me, was the over-emphasis on the native speaker as the perfect teacher. This was always the point of my posts. I think that's perhaps the crux of the issue: you and I are not talking about the same issue. We might not even disagree much over each of our issues (I don't think you are claiming being a native is the be-all-end-all of teaching and I am not claiming that polyglottery is of prime importance in teaching).

To answer your questions anyway:

If the person was a Spanish-French bilingual person, then they obviously couldn't teach me English so that's moot. They would have to be trilingual Spanish-English-French or English-French bilingual (French native speaker who learned English). In the first case, I am not sure how many languages are necessary to be considered a polyglot, but having learned two foreign languages is already significant. In the second, being someone who learned the same language as me from the same starting point would be an interesting aspect. So in both cases, I wouldn't consider being or not being a polyglot a decisive factor and could go with either. I would view them as essentially equal candidates. I guess if everything was really a 100% equal and I was forced to pick, I'd go with the polyglot.

But I imagine you will consider those things red herrings.


Well yes, if you are trying to learn Spanish from a French base, I don't see why English needs to come into it.

Chupito wrote:To answer your second question, like I said, I think being a polyglot would present an advantage mostly for guiding and advising self-learners. The advantage of their extended experience and passion for language does not matter as much in a more traditional classroom setting. It is my personal experience, as someone who has learned only one language, that I don't have as much insight to offer as a polyglot.


I don't agree with this to be honest. Just because someone has learnt or gone through an experience multiple times, does not mean they will be a good teacher. Just like elite sportspeople rarely become successful coaches.

Also people have different styles. One youtube polyglot, for example, promotes his speak from day 1 method.... that would just not work for me as its not my style.

Chupito wrote:I notice you asked me to pick in different scenarios and I did. You haven't yourself mentioned which you would choose to teach English and why.


Not quite sure what you mean, but to teach English to Spanish people say, then a native English speaker with a high level of Spanish (and some sort of teaching qualification) would be my preference. They have a teaching qualification so somewhat understand different people learn different ways and how to adapt to that, and if required, they can explain difficult concepts in Spanish.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby Chupito » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:28 am

MacGyver wrote:
Chupito wrote:I don't think that was the point of the initial discussion or more exactly, the point I chose to comment on, which for me, was the over-emphasis on the native speaker as the perfect teacher. This was always the point of my posts. I think that's perhaps the crux of the issue: you and I are not talking about the same issue. We might not even disagree much over each of our issues (I don't think you are claiming being a native is the be-all-end-all of teaching and I am not claiming that polyglottery is of prime importance in teaching).

To answer your questions anyway:

If the person was a Spanish-French bilingual person, then they obviously couldn't teach me English so that's moot. They would have to be trilingual Spanish-English-French or English-French bilingual (French native speaker who learned English). In the first case, I am not sure how many languages are necessary to be considered a polyglot, but having learned two foreign languages is already significant. In the second, being someone who learned the same language as me from the same starting point would be an interesting aspect. So in both cases, I wouldn't consider being or not being a polyglot a decisive factor and could go with either. I would view them as essentially equal candidates. I guess if everything was really a 100% equal and I was forced to pick, I'd go with the polyglot.

But I imagine you will consider those things red herrings.


Well yes, if you are trying to learn Spanish from a French base, I don't see why English needs to come into it. .


The hypothetical scenario was that they were teaching English to a French native speaker. That's why your Spanish-French bilingual didn't work and I had to tweak it.

MacGyver wrote:
Chupito wrote:To answer your second question, like I said, I think being a polyglot would present an advantage mostly for guiding and advising self-learners. The advantage of their extended experience and passion for language does not matter as much in a more traditional classroom setting. It is my personal experience, as someone who has learned only one language, that I don't have as much insight to offer as a polyglot.


I don't agree with this to be honest. Just because someone has learnt or gone through an experience multiple times, does not mean they will be a good teacher. Just like elite sportspeople rarely become successful coaches.

Also people have different styles. One youtube polyglot, for example, promotes his speak from day 1 method.... that would just not work for me as its not my style.


Of course, there is more to teaching than that and I did emphasize from the very start that being trained, educated, or experienced, or hopefully all three, in teaching languages would matter more to me than being a polyglot. My aunt was apparently great at teaching swimming and skying at the beginner level while being absolutely terrible at it herself. As a general tendency though, given equal education and experience in teaching, I believe that having extensive experience would be a positive compared to having no experience whatsoever or having limited experience.

There are non-polyglots who also prone the speak from day 1 method so I think that's a red herring.

MacGyver wrote:
Chupito wrote:I notice you asked me to pick in different scenarios and I did. You haven't yourself mentioned which you would choose to teach English and why.


Not quite sure what you mean, but to teach English to Spanish people say, then a native English speaker with a high level of Spanish (and some sort of teaching qualification) would be my preference. They have a teaching qualification so somewhat understand different people learn different ways and how to adapt to that, and if required, they can explain difficult concepts in Spanish.


I meant the same scenarios you presented to me You are presenting your ideal candidate - which doesn't differ from mine - not selecting from two options as you asked me to do. As a reminder, the scenarios we discussed were, for teaching English to Korean native speakers and having no qualification in teaching and all else being equal:

- Spanish polyglot with a great command of English and Korean vs English monolingual

- Spanish polyglot with a great command of English and Korean vs Spanish native speaker with a great command of English and no knowledge of Korean (assume same level of English)

- Spanish polyglot with a great command of English and Korean vs Spanish native speaker with a great command of English and Korean (assume same level of English and Korean)

- Spanish polyglot with a great command of English and Korean vs Korean native speaker with a great command of English (assume same level of English)

I picked the polyglot in cases 1 and 2 and said both options were essentially equal in cases 3 and 4, although I would pick the polyglot if forced to pick. Again, I would pick a good qualified and experienced English teacher, with a great command of Korean, above all to teach English in a classroom setting, as I mentioned, but that wasn't an option.
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Re: New Prof Argüelles Youtube Series

Postby David1917 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:38 pm



New vid on the results of the survey pertaining to gender. This clocks in at almost an hour so, be prepared for some Prof rambling. I have not watched it yet to provide the usual summary, since it might not be till the end of today or tomorrow that I get a full hour in front of youtube.
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