Is Pimsleur still a great way to train accents?

[StringerBell]

I personally am not a fan of language textbooks/programs as a way to start learning a language.

I prefer to spend a lot of time listening and listening+reading in the beginning. Unless you're married to the idea of using a program, I would suggest starting off like that - maybe check out the Francais Authentique youtube channel. He sells a program he created, but there are lots of really good free videos on his channel. Then there are some free podcasts through iTunes like the CoffeeBreak series.

I'm sure there's a ton of other cheap/free resources out there if you look (there a lot of resources listed on this forum, too). You can combine that with looking up some basic grammar online (for free) if you have questions about conjugations or specific constructions, and you can use Reverso Context or even google translate to get the meaning of something you hear/read that's confusing. Or you could look over the free FSI French program if you feel like you need something structured.

[白田龍]

You need to learn be able to tell apart the vowels of jeune (like neuf) and jeûne (like jeu), un bon vin blanc, and è é e, then any resource will be fine.

[iguanamon]

Over the years on this forum and on HTLAL, I have seen that some people expect more out of Pimsleur than what it is. Pimsleur is NOT a standalone language-course, even if that's how it's marketed. It will not teach you a language in 90 or 120 lessons, neither will Assimil, nor Teach Yourself, nor Linguaphone, nor Living Language, nor FSI, etc. If this premise is accepted, then a learner can work with it and use it to help them.

Here's a review that I wrote on HTLAL after using the Haitian Creole 30 lesson course (which is all there is for HC)- scroll midway to the fifth post. (I had also done the 90 lesson Brazilian Portuguese course.)

Pimsleur was a big help. I know and agree with most of the knocks against it- too much English, no transcript, too few words taught, somewhat creepily suggestive dialogs, etc. That being said it was still useful. Useful because of the graduated interval recall system, native speaker pronunciation and ease of use- I listened in the car and while walking. If all I used were Pimsleur and nothing else, I would not have made the progress that I have, true. If you use it as a supplement it works very well. The course could be soooo much better if they would just tweak a couple of things-
1) get rid of dialog that either is, or could be construed to be, sexist. Fairly or not, perception is reality.
2) Though there were prompts in the TL beginning around lesson 23, there should be more TL prompts earlier and less English.
3) Admit that your course is a good supplement to other methods and not a one-stop solution for your language learning needs. Market it that way and I think sales will increase.
4) While this course is fairly up to date. It would've been nice to have some reference to the digital age- email, internet and computer lingo, if only to say- "Is there an internet cafe near here? I need to check my email."
5 Though this course did not have any businessman talk- no references to dry cleaners, meetings, taking notes and other business related vocabulary and phrases, many of their courses do. They need to make their courses more relevant to people who like to travel and are interested in the country's or region's culture. This course, though only one level, did that to a large extent.
6) Drop the price. I think they'd sell more of their courses if they dropped the price by at least half or even 2/3. They should end the whole cd business and go all digital.
Still, all that being said, Pimsleur was a really good supplement to my other methods. I like the audio only approach as it makes it independent of having to sit and can be taken anywhere. I don't need or want a transcript as I agree that it defeats the purpose of the course at least for western languages. I didn't bother with the reading lessons. So if you're going to use Pimsleur, use it as a supplement and try to get a copy second hand or from your library.

To this I'll add some more thoughts.
a) Yes, I have indeed found that Pimsleur was good for my pronunciation. Is it better for this purpose than a traditional text/audio course or Assimil, maybe, maybe not. Personally, I can't stand Assimil's artificially slow audio, even in the last lessons, so (speaking just for myself) I'm not going to get good pronunciation from it. Pimsleur, like other courses, uses native-speakers and there's something about the interactivity and the repetition aspect of the graded interval recall that makes it work for me. Yes, Pimsleur audio is also slower and clearer that normal speech but it isn't painfully slow like Assimil's early lessons are, at least to me. YMMV.
b) It may be tempting to run it through audacity to eliminate the pauses... don't do that just because you can. If you can use the built-in pauses to provide the response, that's sort of how it was designed and how the "pretend conversation" works. I know, it's a bit ridiculous with the artificiality of the situations and interactions. I've found that if I suspend my BS meter and just let myself go into it no matter how hokey, I can be in the conversation. I can respond and interact within the language. This process has been called "generating automaticity" here on the forum. Eliminating the pauses, and the opposite, using the pause button to add pause time, defeats the purpose of the course and what it is designed to do- "generating automaticity".
c) Try to resist putting Pimsleur into Anki- at least for this course. Just do the course like the instructions say and move on to the next lesson when you're ready. Beginners often discount, or don't even take into account, the importance of momentum in language-learning. You have to trust that gaps will be filled, that grammar points will be learned even if you don't get it on the first go. If you don't keep going and building momentum though, you won't have a chance to fill those gaps and you may get stuck as a perennial beginner. Pimsleur generally advises to move on to the next lesson if you've answered correctly 80% of the lesson- gotten your responses correct in the provided pauses and with your pronunciation close to the native-speakers. There is no magic pill for pronunciation yet, sadly.
d) Yeah, it doesn't have a transcript- yet another reason why it shouldn't be a main course and should be used alongside a traditional text/audio course.. You don't really need one at this level. Perhaps an exception for non- IE languages, but as long as you are using Pimsleur in conjunction with and alongside another course, you won't really need a transcript. Remember, TL-speakers don't have transcripts or subtitles or closed captions.
e) Don't fork out $400 for it. Most likely, your local library probably won't have the Pimsleur course you want in their collection. Don't let that stop you. You can always try an inter-library loan. Alternative methods are using resellers like Audible.com and searching for used copies at ebay, goodwill or other charity shops. Or perhaps even ask here. Maybe someone will want to sell their copy that they no longer need or want. If after exhausting these options, you still can't find it cheap or free, then forget it
f) If you can manage to complete a 90 or 120 lesson Pimsleur program along with a traditional text/audio course, you'll have a pretty good foundation going for building on your language-learning. As with most basic courses, your real learning will come after you finish them.

[Pimsleur]

d) Yeah, it doesn't have a transcript- yet another reason why it shouldn't be a main course and should be used alongside a traditional text/audio course.. You don't really need one at this level. Perhaps an exception for non- IE languages, but as long as you are using Pimsleur in conjunction with and alongside another course, you won't really need a transcript. Remember, TL-speakers don't have transcripts or subtitles or closed captions.

While a transcript is not provided to go along with the audio lessons, if you purchase the Premium course, the "transcript" is integrated in the premium features to help you review course material and get in deeper with the written language. As you know, following a transcript while doing the actual 30-minute lessons has been shown to be detrimental to your learning and the ear training that Pimsleur diligently builds into each lesson. However, with the Premium course, you can easily review the course's written content while doing reinforcement exercises and reading exercises.

e) Don't fork out $400 for it. Most likely, your local library probably won't have the Pimsleur course you want in their collection. Don't let that stop you. You can always try an inter-library loan. Alternative methods are using resellers like Audible.com and searching for used copies at ebay, goodwill or other charity shops. Or perhaps even ask here. Maybe someone will want to sell their copy that they no longer need or want. If after exhausting these options, you still can't find it cheap or free, then forget it

No sure if you are aware, but you can get Pimsleur on a low-monthly subscription basis these days. That's access to the full available course for that low monthly price. Basically $14.95/month for the regular course and $19.95/month for the Premium course. It comes with a full 7 day free trial with access to the entire course.

https://offers.pimsleur.com/free-trial-1417

[iguanamon]

...No sure if you are aware, but you can get Pimsleur on a low-monthly subscription basis these days. That's access to the full available course for that low monthly price. Basically $14.95/month for the regular course and $19.95/month for the Premium course. It comes with a full 7 day free trial with access to the entire course.

https://offers.pimsleur.com/free-trial-1417

Good to see this and that you are changing with the times! If I understand correctly, if a learner could do a 90 lesson course in four months, it would cost $60 US. That's great!

[LucasGentry]

Yes, when compared to Spanish and many other languages, French is renowned for its difficult orthography; however, English is far worse.

That may be true, but my mouth can already speak English, whereas my French pronunciation, even in Pimsleur Lesson 1, is terrible. I feel like I'm trying to cough, speak, and say multiple syllables all at the same time.

With Spanish, words look basically the same as they sound, so I could practice with flash cards and Anki, but with French, I'm completely lost when it comes to turning words on a page into sounds. So, it looks like my biggest issue for learning this language is going to be pronunciation.

Have you tried the Awesome_TTS extension for Anki? You can use it to generate computerized audio for cards. I have used it for learning Spanish, and it's been surprisingly useful. I checked the audio with a native speaker and they told me it sounded fine. It's obviously not as good as speaking with a native speaker or listening to native audio, but it gave a definite boost to my Anki deck.

I'd never heard of it. Do they have a French version too? I'll have to look into it!

I wrote up these pronunciation guidelines recently for a French meetup I run:
https://speakfrench.neocities.org/lessons_fr/pronunciation.doc
It won't teach you everything or cover all the many, many exceptions but it will give you a good idea of what you should watch out for. Includes IPA so you can look up the exact sounds discussed.

Awesome, thank you very much. I should probably learn IPA soon anyway, and this might be the best reason to start on that task as well.

Given that you can already speak spanish, you might like to consider parallel texts with audio.
Your spanish should give you a head start with reading french, and you could use the french audio to guide your pronunciation.
e.g.
Around the world in 80 days: french audio, french text, spanish text.

EDIT
french language cartoon adaption.

Awesome, these resources might be a great listening practice, since my ears as well as my mouth are completely lost on this language. Added all three links to my bookmarks. Thanks so much!

So then, given your present situation, I would recommend:
Pimsleur French I, II (and no further) accompanied by a very basic grammar of French, then either
FSI/DLI French Basic (try both and settle on whichever suits you the best), or
Assimil French (the older editions are floating “freely” on the Internet), then
Native materials

Bon courage et bonne chance! Vas-y, t’es capable!

Thanks so much for the advice! So far, I'm trying to follow your advice, since I do own Pimsleur French I. If I can get my mouth trained enough to finish Level 1, I'd gladly purchase the next level, because it's going to take a LOT of training to get me that far.

[LucasGentry]

You can also try this technique, the "Reverse Accent Mimicry":

http://iteslj.org/Techniques/Hilton-Acc ... ction.html

I never realized that it had a name, but I have unconsciously been doing this with Spanish. I note that I can speak Spanish clearer if I do my best impression of the way Mexicans sound when they speak English to me, while I say the Spanish words. At first, I felt like by doing that, it was mocking their speech style, but then I realized it was actually making me easier to understand.

Thanks!

No sure if you are aware, but you can get Pimsleur on a low-monthly subscription basis these days. That's access to the full available course for that low monthly price. Basically $14.95/month for the regular course and $19.95/month for the Premium course. It comes with a full 7 day free trial with access to the entire course.
https://offers.pimsleur.com/free-trial-1417

That's all the levels in a given language, correct? That does sound like a pretty solid deal, as long as I can keep with it.

I'll definitely have to see how I can do with Level I, because I already own that one, then if I can finish level I, I'll look into this for the rest. Thanks for the tip!

And for the rest of you, Thank you oh so much for the help in this. I really appreciate the links and the suggestions. From what it looks like, I might work on Pimsleur during my good-brain time, like before work, and find something less intense, like listening through a story, for after work, when my brain isn't as fit for hard study.

Thank you oh so much yet again!

[patrickwilken]

With Spanish, words look basically the same as they sound, so I could practice with flash cards and Anki, but with French, I'm completely lost when it comes to turning words on a page into sounds. So, it looks like my biggest issue for learning this language is going to be pronunciation.

Have you tried the Awesome_TTS extension for Anki? You can use it to generate computerized audio for cards. I have used it for learning Spanish, and it's been surprisingly useful. I checked the audio with a native speaker and they told me it sounded fine. It's obviously not as good as speaking with a native speaker or listening to native audio, but it gave a definite boost to my Anki deck.

I'd never heard of it. Do they have a French version too? I'll have to look into it!

Awesome_TTS is an extension that links you to various online sites that will generate audio from text. I use the NeoSpeech site for Spanish, but I don't know which one would work best for French. It's partly a question of taste. I am sure for a big language like French most of the sites would offer French audio. I have found it really useful for learning Spanish pronunciation as I learn vocabulary. It's obviously not as good as a native speaker, but it's way better than nothing (esp. when you are starting out).

[garyb]

I would say it's not and it never has been. It relies on the user being able to accurately reproduce what they hear, which is a talent that not everybody has, and those who don't are likely to just hear and then say the French sounds (for example) as the closest English equivalents because to their ear they're the same. For those who do have the talent, it should work well, but so will any other course that includes native recordings. For the rest of us, something that explains how to produce the sounds, and the differences from similar English sounds, is far more helpful. FSI Phonology is not great but better than nothing, and there are better choices that have been discussed quite a lot on here.

[Pimsleur]

...No sure if you are aware, but you can get Pimsleur on a low-monthly subscription basis these days. That's access to the full available course for that low monthly price. Basically $14.95/month for the regular course and $19.95/month for the Premium course. It comes with a full 7 day free trial with access to the entire course.

https://offers.pimsleur.com/free-trial-1417

Good to see this and that you are changing with the times! If I understand correctly, if a learner could do a 90 lesson course in four months, it would cost $60 US. That's great!

You could potentially do a 90 lesson (day) course in 3 months and it starts with a 7-day free trial for $45! Or a 150 lesson course in 5 months for $75!