Studying your NT

[Speakeasy]

No Longer Relevant
As some of you might already be aware, I am a relic from a previous generation. The old school: English Grammar and English Composition in Administrative Documents, Business Reports, Thesis Writing, et cetera.

Canadian Public School System (Then, Not Now)
As I progressed through the Canadian Public School System from the early 1950’s through the middle 1960’s, only minimal attention was given to the instruction of what-was-taken-to-be our commonly-shared native tongue, English. From the beginning of the Third Grade of Elementary School, through to the end of the programme (there were two possibilities: a 12-year programme terminating in a Junior Matriculation Certificate, or a 13-year programme, terminating in a Senior Matriculation Certificate), all homework assignments and semester examinations were graded for grammar, irrespective of the subject matter (mathematics, history, sciences, et cetera). That is, despite the very minor emphasis placed on the instruction of English grammar, all submissions were expected to be free of grammatical errors. If not, the student’s submissions were docked points. No consideration was given for a student's actual native tongue should it differ from English.

Beginning in the Tenth Grade, English Composition (grammar and composition) was introduced as a mandatory, specific subject of study through to the end of the 12-year or 13-year programme. Upon completion of the final year of High School, all students were required to successfully sit a set of Provincial Examinations, one of which was English Composition. Failure to pass any of the examinations, including English Composition, meant that a student would not receive their Matriculation Certificate, a matter which had very serious consequences for their employment prospects and their access to higher education.

Canadian Colleges and Universities (Then, Not Now)
Generally speaking, students wishing to register at Canadian universities and colleges in the 1960’s were required to submit a High School Matriculation Certificate along with an original transcript of their grades. As noted above, a passing grade (60% in most provinces) was required in English Composition. Despite this documented evidence of competency, most Canadian colleges and universities required that registering students sit an examination in English Composition and, if they did not meet the institution’s requirements, their course load was augmented by a remedial course in English Composition. Lack of success in the remedial course had very serious consequences for their prospects in advancing to the Second Year of studies. As was the case in the Canadian Public School System, throughout their studies, students’ assignments and semester examinations were graded for grammar, irrespective of the subject matter (mathematics, history, sciences, et cetera).

Professional Organisations (Then, Not Now)
During the period up to the 1980’s most Canadian Professional Organisations (in English Canada) required that student members provide proof of their competency in English Composition. Many of the organisations either provided such instruction themselves or sub-contracted the requirement to colleges and universities where students could attend evening classes of one semester’s duration. In many cases, irrespective of the documentation provided and the aforementioned courses, as part of a set of final examinations leading to registered membership, applicants to the professions were required to sit and pass a final examination in English Composition, Business/Administrative Writing, or some other formulation. The Canadian Armed Forces had similar requirements for its commissioned officers, although these were administered in a very different manner.

Since Then, … le déluge!
It has been decades since I have had any contact with the Canadian Educational System. Nevertheless, from what I can glean from Canadian media, the instruction of English as a subject in English-language educational institutions, and the instruction of French as a subject in French-language educational institutions, were abandoned many, many years ago. Over the past decade, numerous Canadian Provincial Government studies have shown conclusively that the highly-predictable consequences of this lack of native-language instruction (English, French) have led to a significant decline in native-speakers’ ability to expressive themselves clearly and correctly, in writing, in their own languages. Now, wasn’t that a surprise!

EDITED:
Tinkering.

[devilyoudont]

I enjoy literature in my native language, and so do read in English, however basically everything I know about grammar at all I found out by studying other languages.

Trying to explain Esperanto grammar to other English natives, I've found it is not at all uncommon for people my age or younger to have received no formal grammar instruction.

I have at times wondered if this has set me back in foreign language study, but I'm not sure if it's worth it to attempt to correct this.

Maybe at some point I will read some book on English linguistics.

[RachelMeier]

I’m probably not as dedicated a language student as some people on here (3 years to intermediate Korean, still intermediate at 5 lol) but I haven’t found it difficult to maintain a course of varied English reading on top of language studies. In some ways I’ve been inspired by my language studies to go back to genres in English I’ve never enjoyed before too. My interest in Chinese poetry has definitely awakened an interest in trying to find some English poets to enjoy, though that project is stil a work in progress. I love wordplay and have always liked Shakespeare but other than him and probably John Dunne have yet to find another English poet I really like. Trying some Auden right now but he’s a bit obscure for me.

Also as for English reading students actually need, there’s always histories etc of other cultures. IMO most students will need that cultural and historical information long before they are ready to acquire it in the TL, so NL reading should never be dropped completely it seems.

[aaleks]

I remember that in school we were learning things like: what's a noun, verb, adjective etc. and subject and predicate. We were supposed to mark different parts of sentence in a different way (lines), the same with root, suffix, ending, prefix. It was 1-3th grades' stuff. Then we learned cases probably in 4(5)th grade. Also there was something phonetic analysis (or something like that). And I remember that there's причастный и деепричастный обороты (I don't know what they're called in English if at all) but I've forgotten, if I ever knew, what is the difference.

In the overall, I think, I'm as bad at the Russian grammar rules* as at the English ones. But I don't think that my problem with learning the English grammar rules has something to do with the fact that I didn't learn the rules of my native tongue properly. I guess the reason actually is the same - the way my brain works. Everyone has their own flaws, so to speak. So it seems that I'm kind of doomed to reinvent the grammar wheel again and again

And to answer the question - no, I haven't studied my native language apart from in a school setting.

*I mean the written grammar rules - the way they are explained in textbooks/reference books/etc.

[Ani]

I studied English grammar for three years with a nun who threw chalk at your head if you made a mistake. Surprisingly, grammar was my favorite subject at the end of my days in her class.

I'm studying it again by teaching my kids, but I have no real desire to do it for fun.

[rdearman]

I studied English grammar for three years with a nun who threw chalk at your head if you made a mistake. Surprisingly, grammar was my favorite subject at the end of my days in her class.

I'm studying it again by teaching my kids, but I have no real desire to do it for fun.

Do you throw chalk?

[Bluepaint]

I studied English grammar for three years with a nun who threw chalk at your head if you made a mistake. Surprisingly, grammar was my favorite subject at the end of my days in her class.

I'm studying it again by teaching my kids, but I have no real desire to do it for fun.

Do you throw chalk?

Burning question, please answer.

[Kamlari]

I do know grammar. I was taught bits and pieces at school and then I studied it on my own. I read plenty of books on linguistics. I was an avid reader of popular science and belles lettres. Studying foreign languages/cultures made me appreciate my own culture much more. I don't believe in globalism and multiculturalism.

[Ani]

I studied English grammar for three years with a nun who threw chalk at your head if you made a mistake. Surprisingly, grammar was my favorite subject at the end of my days in her class.

I'm studying it again by teaching my kids, but I have no real desire to do it for fun.

Do you throw chalk?

Burning question, please answer.

You know it never occurred to me. But now that I see the correlation in enjoyment (and probably compliance), I'd better start. Dry erase markers it will have to be.

[IronMike]

I studied English grammar for three years with a nun who threw chalk at your head if you made a mistake. Surprisingly, grammar was my favorite subject at the end of my days in her class.

I'm studying it again by teaching my kids, but I have no real desire to do it for fun.

Like Ani, I had chalk thrown at me and rulers smacked across the back of my hand, but boy oh boy did sentence diagramming really sink in. Then of course when I went to DLI to learn Russian, that was an excellent way to learn the grammar of my own language. And teaching the kids when we homeschooled, that helped too. I was very prescriptive with them.