Why bother learning another language?

General discussion about learning languages
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby aravinda » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:01 am

rdearman wrote:It struck me recently that for the average person, read "my family", have no reason, need, or want to learn another language...So is there any compelling reason for Joe Public to learn a language?

A little late to the party but this is a very welcome post. I too have wondered about this question and my conclusions are not very different from yours. I may not agree with the specific details of some of your conclusions but I think they are valid answers to a valid question.

In my view, the only compelling reasons to learn a foreign language are either because you enjoy doing it (bragging rights included) or you need it for work, migrating, family etc. I do love languages so I am learning them but I don’t have any illusions about economic success, making friends or postponing Alzheimer’s with that. Learning a language is a massive investment in terms of money, time and energy. One can accomplish so many other things and excel in one or two fields if they make a similar commitment. When it comes to enjoying native media the situation is a bit tricky. Even if you are “fluent” in the L2, you may still miss a great deal of cultural detail, linguistic nuances etc which a good translator might be able to capture at least partially. More importantly, in the time you spend learning Russian, you can read all the Russian works available in translation and a few more books on Russian history, culture and people to add the context. This gets worse if you are aiming for multiple languages. On the other hand, to really get a feel for the genius of Racine’s plays or Pushkin’s verse you need to read them in the original. And no English translation can do justice to a Sanskrit verse by Kālidāsa.

There is absolutely no reason to look down on monolinguals. They simply don’t have the desire or the need to learn a second language. That’s the case with the majority of English speakers. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. Then there are a lot of people who have learnt one foreign language to a very high level (sometimes with a couple of others). They are the people who write language textbooks and other books and articles on foreign literature, other cultures and history. Then there have been people like George Steiner or Vladimir Nabokov who were fluent in several languages due to their life circumstances and work. But what do polyglots do generally with all their languages nowadays? (Rhetorical question; no need to answer ;) )

Learning a second language to a high level is an achievement worth some praise. However, recently language learning has been glorified to an unprecedented extent. The benefits of language learning are blown out of proportion by the language teaching industry (publishers, institutions, online course providers) and by polyglots themselves. Then there are hundreds of polyglot websites. All this reminds me of a (Chinese ?) story about a person who was teaching students the art of slaying dragons. When asked by one of the students what he could do after completing the training the master says “ Of course, you can be a master like me and teach the art of slaying dragons to others”.

Speaking of certificates, I will try and get one if I need one in the foreseeable future. I will also get one to assess myself or to show off to my family and friends. Without any of these reasons, it’s a bit like getting ready for floods in a place that was never flooded. If you go down that path there is no end.

Please note, the above was not about any polyglot here. I have the highest respect for them all and I am all for learning languages.
Last edited by aravinda on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:55 am

aravinda wrote: Learning a language is a massive investment in terms of money, time and energy. One can accomplish so many other things and excel in one or two fields if they make a similar commitment. When it comes to enjoying native media the situation is a bit tricky. Even if you are “fluent” in the L2, you may still miss a great deal of cultural detail, linguistic nuances etc which a good translator might be able to capture at least partially. More importantly, in the time you spend learning Russian, you can read all the Russian works available in translation and a few more books on Russian history, culture and people to add the context.

I think you overestimate the level of translators. From my experience, many people supposed to be much better than me (for example finishing a translation Master degree) are simply not, complain that reading in original takes them too much time, and I see mistakes in translations that are definitely not caused by something very complex, just by laziness or ignorance of the "professional" translator.

I think the problem here is the word "fluent". Some people mean fluently using touristy phrases by that and I would agree that anything up to B2 cannot compare in the amount of detail and nuances you can understand. But I definitely don't think any C2 and most C1 readers are worse than most translators.

Reading the original is also not slower in general, only the first few books. Yes, you fall behind at first, while you are learning, but you catch up. And then you read not only what is available in translation, but also other stuff. I know it sounds weird to some people. But I would feel really ashamed, if I had to be limited just by what others choose for me and translate for Czech, I would feel like an intellectual failure and a worthless sheep. This is even more visible in the non-fiction literature and it is not just about everyone wanting the English based resources. You can clearly see the difference between medical students using internationally respected resources, and those limiting themselves only to the Czech ones.

I know the English natives may not understand that and you are in a different situation, but the balance may switch slightly in the decades to come. But for the natives of the small languages, it is rather obvious: knowing foreign languages and using them correlates with intelligence, education, ethics, and success in life. It doesn't determine it, my dad is an example of a great and successful monolingual person, but his generation could afford risking it. In my generation, it is different.

Staying monolingual or learning only English means giving up hope on a better life, more success, and being exceptional. English was the key to a perfect carrier back in the 90's, it is not enough anymore.

I understand the English monolinguals, that they don't want to learn other languages. And some are also genuinely convinced there is nothing worth knowing that is not originally in English or at least translated to it, and that is a cultural problem. But they should perhaps realise one more reason to learn a language: prestige. In most countries, knowing a foreign language is being viewed as a sign of various positive personal traits. :-)

There is absolutely no reason to look down on monolinguals. They simply don’t have the desire or the need to learn a second language. That’s the case with the majority of English speakers. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. Then there are a lot of people who have learnt one foreign language to a very high level (sometimes with a couple of others). They are the people who write language textbooks and other books and articles on foreign literature, other cultures and history. Then there have been people like George Steiner or Vladimir Nabokov who were fluent in several languages due to their life circumstances and work. But what do polyglots do generally with all their languages nowadays? (Rhetorical question; no need to answer ;) )

I didn't know this thread was just about the English natives :-D
I think what should be promoted is learning at least one language to a good level as a part of one's education, and that applies to everyone. After all, we do lots of stuff that is not essential to our survival, yet it is key to forming us as better people. Most people use the same arguments about obligatory history classes, arts, and many other things.

Noone is looking down on the monolinguals in general. I am looking down at monolinguals my ages with a worthless native language like mine, that much is true :-D


Learning a second language to a high level is an achievement worth some praise. However, recently language learning has been glorified to an unprecedented extent. The benefits of language learning are blown out of proportion by the language teaching industry (publishers, institutions, online course providers) and by polyglots themselves. Then there are hundreds of polyglot websites. All this reminds me of a (Chinese ?) story about a person who was teaching students the art of slaying dragons. When asked by one of the students what he could do after completing the training the master says “ Of course, you can be a master like me and teach the art of slaying dragons to others”.

I think this paragraph is much more about humanities in general. Just look at all those people being glorified for getting the easier degrees in humanities (there is a huge book of private universities of dubious quality in my country. And of course they focus on humanities and economics only, because the other fields require more investments in labs and such stuff, and also better students than those looking for the private schools). Vast majority of people with degrees like "culturology" can't do anything with that, they either do outside of the field or they teach it.

In this context, I think the languages deserve praise, as they are much more useful than most things falling to the same category.

The polyglot websites and hype, that is for a different thread, I'd say. It is true that this phenomenon is somewhat weird.


Speaking of certificates, I will try and get one if I need one in the foreseeable future. I will also get one to assess myself or to show off to my family and friends. Without any of these reasons, it’s a bit like getting ready for floods in a place that was never flooded. If you go down that path there is no end.

In 2002, half my country was flooded, most of it hadn't been flooded before :-) and life is just like that. I don't think getting one language certificate is "going down a path without an end", it is called prudence. Just like you get vaccinated despite knowing the chance of encountering the disease is not that high, but you don't want to die just because of recklessness and a bit of bad luck.

There are many people, who are unlikely to need the certificate, true (an older person with an established career without ambition including foreigners). But in general, there are still more of those not taking it despite potentially needing it than vice versa.

Let me give you a real life example, brought to me by a medical French teacher at my faculty. It is both about "why learn another language than English" and "why get a certificate":
Every year, six hundred students with years of previous experience with a second foreign language (and various level) enter the 1st year, and vast majority of them decides to forget that as there are more important things there languages suddenly on their plate. They "rationally" go for the medical English classes (which is a bad choice, as the teachers there are really much worse not only that the other languages' teachers but also worse than half the students), they don't pursuit a good level AND certification in the other language. The German classes still survive, as people know they might want to move abroad and Germany is the easiest choice, but no other language. Even the medical French classes died out and turned into some elearning or perhaps not even that anymore. A few years after their "clever" decision, these students want to go abroad on a student exchange, and they see the lists of opportunities with tons of French, German, Spanish, Italian speaking universities (and some other ones) on it and almost no natively anglophone ones. The opportunities in English are usually worse, just like our MD in English program is much worse than the real one.

So, those people suddenly panic, start taking beginner classes, as they have forgotten everything, or even have to give up on some of the best opportunities, as those happen to require a certificate, and sometimes as low level certificate as B1. But those students hadn't bothered , back when they were supposed to be at B1. Had they been more reasonable and passed an exam "just in case" and later maintained the skills a bit, they would now be much calmer, improve their chances of being selected, and later get much more from their stay. Especially as these stays abroad are one of the few chances to get some real education at our horrible faculty.

Ask those people in the 1st and 2nd year. They will speak about the need to put their time, money, and energy in more important things and "I don't need the certificate, I'll take the exam, if I need it one day". Ask them in the 4th or 5th year and they will tell you how stupid they have been.
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby nooj » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:13 pm

aaleks wrote:Languages are just a tool for communication and sharing/receiving information so there hardly could be some really new out of the box reason.
I guess my reason (if I try to generalize it somehow) is a mix of curiosity (curiosities?).



Languages are more than that. They're also the means by which identity is formed. Language is one of the most important factors in how people create in and outgroups.

So I echo the reason given by a previous member, which is that heritage learners might want to learn a language connected to their parents or grandparents.
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby aaleks » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:29 pm

Cavesa wrote:
Every year, six hundred students with years of previous experience with a second foreign language (and various level) enter the 1st year, and vast majority of them decides to forget that as there are more important things there languages suddenly on their plate.
<...>
Ask those people in the 1st and 2nd year. They will speak about the need to put their time, money, and energy in more important things and "I don't need the certificate, I'll take the exam, if I need it one day". Ask them in the 4th or 5th year and they will tell you how stupid they have been.

That's a different story -- not a "just in case" situation. For those students the possibility that one day they would need the certificate is real, not an imaginary one.

nooj wrote:
aaleks wrote:Languages are just a tool for communication and sharing/receiving information so there hardly could be some really new out of the box reason.
I guess my reason (if I try to generalize it somehow) is a mix of curiosity (curiosities?).

Languages are more than that. They're also the means by which identity is formed. Language is one of the most important factors in how people create in and outgroups.


Native languages - yes, but a second language - I doubt it because I'm the same person in both - my native Russian and my L2 English.
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby Serpent » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:41 pm

rdearman wrote:So if I'm living in Moscow and have no intention of moving and my work doesn't require me to learn any other language.
Lots of people thought so before the world cup happened :D

Anyway, it's very telling that you picked Moscow/Russian as your next example. Indeed there are places where you don't need an L2. But if your L1 isn't English, it has to be another big language for that. From what I understand, this also applies to FIGS, Mandarin, Arabic, Japanese, maybe Portuguese (though it seems like very few Portuguese speakers never use Spanish or English, at least passively). And that's basically it. At least if you want to keep growing professionally (but you still have much better opportunities if you learn English).
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby Xenops » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:12 pm

aaleks wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
Every year, six hundred students with years of previous experience with a second foreign language (and various level) enter the 1st year, and vast majority of them decides to forget that as there are more important things there languages suddenly on their plate.
<...>
Ask those people in the 1st and 2nd year. They will speak about the need to put their time, money, and energy in more important things and "I don't need the certificate, I'll take the exam, if I need it one day". Ask them in the 4th or 5th year and they will tell you how stupid they have been.

That's a different story -- not a "just in case" situation. For those students the possibility that one day they would need the certificate is real, not an imaginary one.

.


As my dad would say, “you never know what you will use until you have it.”
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby Xmmm » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:46 pm

Xenops wrote:
aaleks wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
Every year, six hundred students with years of previous experience with a second foreign language (and various level) enter the 1st year, and vast majority of them decides to forget that as there are more important things there languages suddenly on their plate.
<...>
Ask those people in the 1st and 2nd year. They will speak about the need to put their time, money, and energy in more important things and "I don't need the certificate, I'll take the exam, if I need it one day". Ask them in the 4th or 5th year and they will tell you how stupid they have been.

That's a different story -- not a "just in case" situation. For those students the possibility that one day they would need the certificate is real, not an imaginary one.

.


As my dad would say, “you never know what you will use until you have it.”


Europeans seem to be hung up on these CEFR exams. In America, it's more like "Your resume looks great on paper. Great that you studied Russian, we need that. Come in on Monday. We'll set up an interview for you with Yuri. It will be conducted in Russian."

So in America, the only value of a CEFR certificate is if you have some emigration to Europe plan where it's required (similar to PM's situation).

But one thing you'll find in America is everyone talks about moving to Europe (I do it as well), but very few people ever do. Meantime, walking around America you run into all kinds of people from England, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Russia who are moving the other way. And nobody cares about their English language certs, lol.
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby Chung » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:57 pm

nooj wrote:
aaleks wrote:Languages are just a tool for communication and sharing/receiving information so there hardly could be some really new out of the box reason.
I guess my reason (if I try to generalize it somehow) is a mix of curiosity (curiosities?).



Languages are more than that. They're also the means by which identity is formed. Language is one of the most important factors in how people create in and outgroups.

So I echo the reason given by a previous member, which is that heritage learners might want to learn a language connected to their parents or grandparents.


As much as I prioritize communicative utility like aaleks and have some misgivings on encountering language used as the way to form identity (see here and here), I've resigned myself to thinking that the latter is a thing and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

For sure, there's nothing really to apologize for when choosing to learn any language no matter how useless/useful it is or whether it was used by ancestors or not. My learning Northern Saami because it fascinated me and I encountered it when visiting Lapland doesn't invalidate others' efforts to learn it because their ancestors speak/spoke it (nor vice-versa).
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby cjareck » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:19 pm

In my case the answer is simple - to be able to read (and of course, understand) sources in this language. So, for the Great War, this is German and Russian for the Eastern Front and German, French and English for the Western. The possibility of reading the sources and the publications allows understanding a different point of view and helps to find the truth.
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Re: Why bother learning another language?

Postby rdearman » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:29 pm

Xmmm wrote:But one thing you'll find in America is everyone talks about moving to Europe (I do it as well), but very few people ever do. Meantime, walking around America you run into all kinds of people from England, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Russia who are moving the other way. And nobody cares about their English language certs, lol.

As an American living in the UK, trust me when I tell you that you can't swing a dead cat in Europe without hitting an American. I think a lot more people do leave than you'd think. I can personally list ten of the top of my head not counting me. Still there is what 128 million in the US? So even if less than 1% leave it is still a lot.

But then again you could move juat about anywhere in the British Commonwealth and you don't have to learn another language.So immigration and language learning are not necessarily related.
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