The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby reineke » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:26 pm

Glossy wrote:English has been the world’s most important language since 1945, so of course modern lists overrepresent English.

As late as the 17th century Spain and the Netherlands, for example, seemed more important than England. I’m not even talking about France, Germany or Italy.

Well, in an alternative history where Dutch became the world’s lingua franca by the 20th century, lots of Dutch writers most of us have never heard of would have been retroactively promoted to the status of global classics.

I think that’s what happened to English lit. That’s why English tops the lists in this thread. In the 18th and 19th centuries everyone in Europe looked up to French literature. It was kind of the model. Before that everyone read the Greek and Latin classics.

A list of what’s considered important now is very different from a list of what was considered important in every one of the periods covered. Very different from a list of what was considered important on average, over the entire period.


"The appearance in 1669 of the first literary society (dichtgenootschap) was an omen of a decline in Dutch literature lasting through the 18th century. Material well-being sapped the vitality of the nation. Even the talented poet Hubert Poot suffered from the delusion of his day that rococo flourish and prescribed form were the criteria of poetry. Prose, too, consisted almost exclusively of translations and bombastic disquisitions."
https://www.britannica.com/art/Dutch-literature

"Jonathan Swift has had a profound impact on almost all the national literatures of Continental Europe."
The Reception of Jonathan Swift in Europe


"English authors such as Daniel Defoe, James Thomson, Edward Young, and especially Samuel Richardson influenced French writers, who carved plots from ..."
Encyclopedia of the Romantic Era, 1760-1850, Volume 2

"Reputation of Clarissa
On the Continent, Clarissa was widely read and influential; two generations of European writers imitated him. Diderot not only admired Richardson in Eloge de Richardson(1762) but even judged friends using Clarissa as his yardstick. For Rousseau, "no one, in any language, has ever written a novel that equals or even approaches Clarissa"; his Julie, ou la Nouvelle Heloise (1761), one of the most important French novels of the eighteenth century, showed Richardson's influence. That influence also extended to Germany, most notably in Lessing's plays and Goethe's novels."
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/engli ... index.html
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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby Glossy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:50 pm

The wiki on incunabulae has pie charts that show the distribution by language and region of books printed before 1500.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... region.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... nguage.png

I’m guessing that most modern people, not just in the English-speaking world, would be surprised by the place of English there.

Those charts show a pretty short time period. It would be interesting to see that kind of data for later centuries. The main trend in the 16th and 17th centuries was of course the decline of Latin. The relative decline of Italian, the growth of French would have been other trends. English didn’t start to become important for a long time after this.
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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby kanewai » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:25 pm

devilyoudont wrote:Is there any list that is more or less a World Canon? :)


I've seen attempts at one, but I've never liked the results. Part of the problem is trying to merge different traditions. You can trace threads through the Western canon, and see how Homer and the Bible and Virgil and the various Jewish and Muslim scholars and the Renaissance all interacted. I assume you could do the same thing for the other great literary cultures, like Japan, China, or India. But for the most part the Asian and Western traditions didn't interact much until the 19th or 20th Century.
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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:15 pm

kanewai wrote:
devilyoudont wrote:Is there any list that is more or less a World Canon? :)


I've seen attempts at one, but I've never liked the results. Part of the problem is trying to merge different traditions. You can trace threads through the Western canon, and see how Homer and the Bible and Virgil and the various Jewish and Muslim scholars and the Renaissance all interacted. I assume you could do the same thing for the other great literary cultures, like Japan, China, or India. But for the most part the Asian and Western traditions didn't interact much until the 19th or 20th Century.

Yes, I think it would make the most sense to separate other canons into regions. I could imagine an East Asian based on of Classical Chinese the way the Western Canon is based out of Greek and Latin, with modern Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and maybe Vietnamese and Thai and some others, with some influence from India due to the spread of Buddhism.

But I wouldn't imagine much influence of the East Asian canon on, say, an Indian canon based off of Sanskrit and consisting of other Indic languages (say, Hindustani, Bengali, Punjabi, etc.) as well as Dravidian languages such as Telugu and Tamil, also including English for some of the most recent works, which would be influenced by the Western Canon as well.

The closest thing to a world canon was probably the list by Bokklubben that was mentioned earlier in the thread, but that still ended up with the same top 8 languages as a Western Canon. After the top 8, the remaining languages with multiple entries were:
Sanskrit3
Portuguese3
Arabic3
Norwegian2
Classical Latin2
Persian2
Japanese2

But this is a very small sample size.

I would be very interested to get my hands on bigger lists for eastern traditions. Too bad that Dr. Arguelle's lists that Cavesa mentioned aren't available yet:
  • The Canon for Central (Middle Eastern) Civilization
  • The Canon for Indic Civilization
  • The Canon for (Far) Eastern Civilization
For a middle eastern canon I would expect a top three of Arabic, Persian, and Turkish in that order, and some ancient texts in languages like Hebrew, Aramaic, and Akkadian. It would probably also have some interaction with the Western and Indic canons. But without data from experts, I can only guess.
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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby reineke » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:17 pm

Glossy wrote:The wiki on incunabulae has pie charts that show the distribution by language and region of books printed before 1500.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... region.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... nguage.png

I’m guessing that most modern people, not just in the English-speaking world, would be surprised by the place of English there.

Those charts show a pretty short time period. It would be interesting to see that kind of data for later centuries. The main trend in the 16th and 17th centuries was of course the decline of Latin. The relative decline of Italian, the growth of French would have been other trends. English didn’t start to become important for a long time after this.


Most modern people would not know what you're talking about. Incunabula is plural of incunabulum. The English language incunabula were mostly written in Middle English. The total number of these items is very small (30,000) which puts a different perspective on these percentages. Still, English is the sixth most represented language. This is rather unsurprising if you look at English history:

The Hundred Years' War - 1337 to 1453
The Wars of the Roses 1455 - 1487
The English Renaissance ~ 1500

In the Modern period the book production numbers are heavily in favor of English (and the other main European languages). The Netherlands is a book producing powerhouse but the Golden Age apparently produced great names in areas other than literature. If we don't know about these authors it's certainly not because of the current global dominance of English. Readers of Andersen and Ibsen did not have a Viking axe pressed against their necks.
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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby lichtrausch » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:21 pm

Cavesa wrote:I find the choice of authors fascinating, but it makes me wonder, whether this is really a canon like the others we've discussed. To me, it looks more like an "advanced list" for people who have already covered a lot during their pre-university education, but I can easily be wrong here.

It seems like this thread is primarily concerned with fiction, so let me extract the fiction works from the list for a slightly better comparison.

4 「カラマーゾフの兄弟」 Братья Карамазовы by Dostoevsky
19 「中島敦全集」 Collected Works of Atsushi Nakajima
23 「それから」And Then by Natsume Soseki
24 「三四郎」 Sanshiro by Natsume Soseki
25 「失われた時を求めて」À la recherche du temps perdu by Proust
30 「邪宗門」 Heretical Faith by Kazumi Takahashi
38 「罪と罰」 Преступление и наказание by Dostoevsky
44 「ドン・キホーテ」 Don Quijote de la Mancha by Cervantes
56 「君たちはどう生きるか」 How Do You Live? by Yoshino Genzaburo
57 「吾輩は猫である」 I Am a Cat by Natsume Soseki
62 「地下室の手記」 Записки из подполья by Dostoevsky
66 「白鯨」 Moby Dick by Herman Melville
68 「魔の山」 Der Zauberberg by Thomas Mann
85 「ガリヴァー旅行記」 Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift
88 「シルトの岸辺」 Le Rivage des Syrtes by Julien Gracq

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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby Glossy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:26 pm

reineke wrote:If we don't know about these authors it's certainly not because of the current global dominance of English. Readers of Andersen and Ibsen did not have a Viking axe pressed against their necks.


If French was now the main medium of international communication, how do you think such lists would look? I mean lists of the Western canon broken down by language. I think French would be first on them. Whether German or English would be second I don’t know. If German was the world’s chief language now, German would be first of course, French second and English third.

If for some reason Dutch acquired a dominant position during the 20th century, would the literary history of the previous 500 years have been rewritten to place it first in such lists? I think it’s possible. The public perceptions of many aspects of history are very far from reality. If not first, Dutch would certainly be second. The top non-Dutch language in such lists would be French, not English.
Last edited by Glossy on Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby reineke » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:26 pm

Glossy, Comte did some of his reading while Napoleon was still warm and Tolstoy did his in the middle of the 19th century.

"On October, 1851, Auguste Comte published a list of Books for general reading, which he called The Positivist Library in the Nineteenth Century. It consists of about 270 distinct compositions, by about 140 authors. His purpose was, "to guide the more thoughtful minds among the people in their choice of books for constant use"...

https://ia801406.us.archive.org/34/item ... rrgoog.pdf

Choice of Books by Sir John Lubbock (1896)
http://www.sonic.net/~rteeter/grtlubbock.html

Tolstoy’s Reading List (1891).
https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/09/3 ... ding-list/
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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby reineke » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:10 pm

Other lists. Culled from my log. Xmmm loves these:

J. Peder Zane
The Top Ten: Writers Pick Their Favorite Books

"From David Foster Wallace (#1: The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis) to Stephen King (#1: The Golden Argosy, a 1955 anthology of the best short stories in the English language), the collection offers a rare glimpse of the building blocks of great creators' combinatorial creativity—because, as Austin Kleon put it, "you are a mashup of what you let into your life."

The book concludes with an appendix of "literary number games" summing up some patterns and constructing several overall rankings based on the totality of the different authors' picks.


Top Ten Authors by Points Earned
1. Leo Tolstoy – 327

2. William Shakespeare – 293

3. James Joyce – 194

4. Vladimir Nabokov – 190

5. Fyodor Dostoevsky – 177

6. William Faulkner – 173

7. Charles Dickens – 168

8. Anton Checkhov – 165

9. Gustave Flaubert – 163

10. Jane Austen – 161

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/252209/

J. Peder Zane
The Top Ten: Writers Pick Their Favorite Books

http://www.toptenbooks.net

The owner of the site http://thegreatestbooks.org compiles a list of lists. If you know of any good lists by Brazilian, Dutch, Polish or Korean authors, do let him know.

Os 50 melhores livros da história da literatura

A list of lists - Brazilian style
http://www.livrosepessoas.com/2015/08/1 ... as-listas/

Ranker's The Best Authors of All Time

Upvote your favorite authors.
https://www.ranker.com/list/best-writer ... nker-books
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Re: The most represented languages in The Western Canon of Literature™ - by the numbers

Postby reineke » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:10 pm

“Canons are always about closed communities – who is excluded is at least as important as who is included. It is the ‘in’ crowd that usually controls the entrances, which means that the canonized or canonical writers largely resemble those who have judged them to be ‘major’ or ‘important’ or ‘classic,’” Behrendt said. “But this judging still rests on the tastes and preferences of the judges, who have traditionally been conditioned, whether they are aware of it, to prefer certain things – familiar things, mostly – over unfamiliar ones.”

http://www.dailynebraskan.com/culture/l ... 0f31a.html
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