Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

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kulaputra
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby kulaputra » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:47 am

just watch TV

I honestly doubt the accuracy or usefulness of such lists for even major, frequently studied languages, much less Finnish or Tagalog. They're ultimately going to be limited by the corpora they use, which is usually from print, for reasons of convenience.

TV shows, specifically ones depicting daily life, are much better at this kind of thing.
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby Cainntear » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:16 am

Hashimi wrote:I was flipping through A Frequency Dictionary of Spanish and I was surprised that among the most 5000 frequent words in this dictionary, you will not find everyday vocabulary like pastel (cake), mateca (butter), cebolla (onion), jamon (ham), or even helado (ice cream). There are no sobrina (niece), cuñado (brother in law), and most of the family members and relatives.

How often do you actually talk about onions? I have three brothers and three sisters, and even then I don't use the words brother and sister all that often.

Don't confuse language-lesson-vocab with everyday-vocab.
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白田龍
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby 白田龍 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:20 pm

If you take a list of most frequently words for foodstufs from corpora of modern fiction by native writers, I think you are bound to find them roughly sorted from common and widely used to rare and not well known, in a way that highly correlates spontaneous everyday speech I suppose.
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kulaputra
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby kulaputra » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:03 pm

Cainntear wrote:
Hashimi wrote:I was flipping through A Frequency Dictionary of Spanish and I was surprised that among the most 5000 frequent words in this dictionary, you will not find everyday vocabulary like pastel (cake), mateca (butter), cebolla (onion), jamon (ham), or even helado (ice cream). There are no sobrina (niece), cuñado (brother in law), and most of the family members and relatives.

How often do you actually talk about onions? I have three brothers and three sisters, and even then I don't use the words brother and sister all that often.

Don't confuse language-lesson-vocab with everyday-vocab.


If you cook your own food on a regular basis, onions are a fairly common thing to reference. If you don't, but you're a Catholic, then "monja" might really be more common to reference then "cebolla."

In English it is uncommon to call your siblings "brother" or "sister," but in many languages this is either the preferred way of addressing them or the only socially acceptable way of calling them (just as you wouldn't call your mother by her first name in most Anglo families).

All of this to say that what's common for you is gonna depend on your interests and the culture you are in, hence why native language media and/or immersion is a much better way to go about this.
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Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby Ccaesar » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:06 pm

There are many different variations of frequency some lists focus on the oral language, or the written language, others focus on genres such as written literature, and yet others on the language used in tv interviews. :)
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:11 pm

This is an extremely valid question. And the answer is: no.

I have excellent vocabulary thanks to tv series, books, and so on. I don't usually use the frequency lists but I get the content covered and don't see much new stuff there, that wouldn't be in the other sources. I dislike the lists based mostly on newspapers, those are the worst. But I have gaps elsewhere.

It is harder to acquire the everyday vocabulary. Or rather, the vocabulary for items we use everyday but don't necessarily speak about often. But when you need the word, any native knows it immediately, and all the describing coping mechanism useful to a beginner or intermediate learner make an advanced one look like a complete moron. It really makes a bad impression.

Those are the words for hygiene items, cooking utensils, parts of a car that may get easily broken, tools for housework and so on. The get covered the best (of the common tools) in either coursebooks or specific vocab teaching books. Most learners hate these vocab lists, it is the usual complaint "why should I learn a list of twenty kitchen items instead of something higher on the frequency list". Well, because the words taught will be useful later on, if the person really wants to use the language. Sure, they don't need to and perhaps even shouldn't learn the whole list at once, but they eventually should.

Examples of words I needed and should have known in my real life in foreign languages and hadn't known them due to the "I won't need this stupid thematic list" approach: a lightbulb, a shoelace, a blinker, a strap, garlic, and others. Either I had been lazy to learn the lists or the coursebooks had been focusing on frequency too much at the expense of teaching the unpopular stuff. Of course I had to look up stuff like "porte à galandage" but that was different and the stuff it is ok even for an advanced learner to look up on spot.

Not knowing these words is exactly the problem you are describing, that's why people are sometimes disheartened by being able to discuss the global warming and not able to get their shoes fixed. Sure, a popular argument is "but you can describe the thing or look in a dictionary, when you need it". Well, you will be looking in a dictionary from time to time no matter how well you prepare, but it is a difference, whether you look once per conversation at most, or you need to look up half the words in a sentence, while the native talks to you. Knowing the right word is highly useful.

There is a popular way of thinking, that you don't need to learn that many words. And for some purposes and goals, you really don't. S'allard has been successfully passing advanced exams lately having focused on core vocabulary (and he deserves the admiration for his recent achievements like DELE C2). But I have experience with actually living abroad, and the more vocabulary you know, the fewer problems you'll face in case of any unexpected situation. There is no such a thing as "learning too much vocabulary", no matter how much would most language learners love to hear the opposite.

Yes, some tv series and books and similar things will help you with this kind of vocabulary. Crime stories (anything can be a murder weapon ;-) ), some kinds of YA literature, even some scifi and so on, it depends on the book. However, it may not suffice. To the interesting question posed in the thread: TV series don't depict the life of common people, but many of them include lots of the vocabulary from everyday life.

As far as natural sources go, I recommend stuff like eshops and websites on various topis, or youtube tutorials, or sometimes even tv commercials. Textbooks in the language are awesome for stuff you may need at work or for your studies.

For the learner aimed resources, there are various kinds. There are thematic dictionaries with a certain amount of words ordered in two columns (google Hueber Grundwortschatz or Le Robert et Nathan Vocabulaire). There are illustrated dictionaries with a few thousand nouns (but of varying quality, depends on the publisher). There are much more active workbooks like Vocabulaire Progressif or similar ones for other languages). Some coursebooks include a lot of useful everyday vocabulary (despite the fact most learners hate it).

Another good method for covering your personal gaps and needs is carrying a notebook at all times and writing down everything you are thinking about, or talking about, or in need of, and couldn't say it in the target language. Write it down and look it up later. Write it down, because "I'll remember that" is one of the most common lies we tell ourselves imho :-) Especially as no book for a wider public can guess correctly what stuff do YOU need in your daily life, only you can.

For the "I don't know what I should learn" problem, I have even considered going through a dictionary, page by page, and imagine a use of every word and pick all those I think I could need, or stuff I have heard or seen somewhere and liked it but didn't memorise enough for active use. This is definitely a time consuming method and it is NOT for beginners. It is for people with some experience and who have been exposed to the language for enough time to tell the needed and usually untaught words from the unneeded ones.

Unfortunately, it is extremely popular these days to criticise coursebooks exactly for teaching this kind of vocab the learner could need in the long run and to focus on the frequency lists too much instead.People are obsessed with the levels and with having things ordered exactly by the "what will I need" as they see it at the given moment, most people seem not to take language learning as a longer endeavour and a collection of various stuff that will sum up in the end. But anyone wishing to really use the language in real life and to get to a solid level in more areas than what the exams tend to include should strive to learn lots of vocabulary and to choose it carefully.
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aaleks
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby aaleks » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:23 pm

Cavesa wrote:Those are the words for hygiene items, cooking utensils, parts of a car that may get easily broken, tools for housework and so on. The get covered the best (of the common tools) in either coursebooks or specific vocab teaching books. Most learners hate these vocab lists, it is the usual complaint "why should I learn a list of twenty kitchen items instead of something higher on the frequency list". Well, because the words taught will be useful later on, if the person really wants to use the language. Sure, they don't need to and perhaps even shouldn't learn the whole list at once, but they eventually should.

Examples of words I needed and should have known in my real life in foreign languages and hadn't known them due to the "I won't need this stupid thematic list" approach: a lightbulb, a shoelace, a blinker, a strap, garlic, and others. Either I had been lazy to learn the lists or the coursebooks had been focusing on frequency too much at the expense of teaching the unpopular stuff. Of course I had to look up stuff like "porte à galandage" but that was different and the stuff it is ok even for an advanced learner to look up on spot.


There might be another reason -- learners just don't pay due attention to such words and because of that many of them just escape the attention. But still even though I wasn't using word lists of any kind I know the words like: fork, spoon, knife, plate, dish, saucer, cap, glass, pan, kettle; also screwdriver, crowbar, hammer, axe, nail, sink, tub, etc. But, of course, if one needs to learn all the words fast, word lists might be a better choice.
Cavesa wrote:As far as natural sources go, I recommend stuff like eshops and websites on various topis, or youtube tutorials, or sometimes even tv commercials. Textbooks in the language are awesome for stuff you may need at work or for your studies.

For some reason I've never thought about that but, yes, you're right -- tv commercials, tv shops might be a great source of the every-day vocabulary.

p.s. I'm not against using word lists as a learning tool in general, I just don't use them myself. But who knows, maybe one day I would?..
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Cavesa
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:38 pm

aaleks wrote:There might be another reason -- learners just don't pay due attention to such words and because of that many of them just escape the attention. But still even though I wasn't using word lists of any kind I know the words like: fork, spoon, knife, plate, dish, saucer, cap, glass, pan, kettle; also screwdriver, crowbar, hammer, axe, nail, sink, tub, etc. But, of course, if one needs to learn all the words fast, word lists might be a better choice.

I think wordlists are not necessarily a good primary learning source, but they are awesome for covering the gaps. You can definitely learn a majority of you list from a few books like the vampire novels by Charlaine Harris plus the Broken Sword games. But will you learn all of them? A high quality wordlist lets me know earlier than when I am in urgent need of such a word. I don't think the wordlists are necessary for everyone, but they could be the cure for lots of people complaining about their vocabulary


Cavesa wrote:As far as natural sources go, I recommend stuff like eshops and websites on various topis, or youtube tutorials, or sometimes even tv commercials. Textbooks in the language are awesome for stuff you may need at work or for your studies.

For some reason I've never thought about that but, yes, you're right -- tv commercials, tv shops might be a great source of the every-day vocabulary.

tv shops are not a good idea, in my opinion. As far as I know, they sell anything BUT the useful items for normal life :-D
But commercials include normal things, but you need to filter the commercial language and the real language, which are mixed there a bit
I recommend websites like:
https://www.obi.de
https://www.zara.com/es/
https://www.mondialtissus.fr/mercerie.html
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=come+cucire+un+vestito
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=comment+faire+un+montage+video+sur+pc
https://www.t-online.de/heim-garten/garten/gartenarbeit/
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aaleks
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby aaleks » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:16 pm

Cavesa wrote:A high quality wordlist lets me know earlier than when I am in urgent need of such a word. I don't think the wordlists are necessary for everyone, but they could be the cure for lots of people complaining about their vocabulary

When you need to learn the words in no time that's a completely different story, of course.

Cavesa wrote:tv shops are not a good idea, in my opinion. As far as I know, they sell anything BUT the useful items for normal life :-D

Well, yes :lol: but if they're trying to sell you a new super-duper cheese grater they would call it a cheese grater, right? I'm guessing now :mrgreen:
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Cavesa
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Re: Is everyday vocabulary = the most frequent vocabulary?

Postby Cavesa » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:45 am

Thanks, Hashimi :-)

Hashimi wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Those are the words for hygiene items, cooking utensils, parts of a car that may get easily broken, tools for housework and so on.


Well, to be honest, I don't know the names of most utensils or car parts in my native language. I don't even know if there are words for them in most languages.

When was the last time you used the word naběračka or špátle? do you have a specific word for bougie d'allumage in Czech other than the general word for any candle (svíčka)?

Cavesa wrote:or the coursebooks had been focusing on frequency too much at the expense of teaching the unpopular stuff.


It's quite the contrary. Mark Davies, the co-author of Frequency Dictionaries series, say that only 10-50% of vocabulary in coursebooks are among the most frequent words in the language.


I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. (And I use naběračka normally. Not every day. And I don't think using bougie for bougie d'allumage would be that much of a problem. Not knowing the word "clignotant" was a problem. ).

1.I am striving to get my foreign language vocabulary to the same level of my native vocabulary. So, I don't know all the car parts but just those I may expect to need at some point (and that's why I was taught these things during the preparation for my driving license) and I want to know these in a foreign language too.

2.You are right, I am not saying those lists in the coursebooks are the most frequent words, I am saying that the coursebook words are very useful despite not being high on the frequency lists and sometimes exactly because they are not on the frequency lists.

That opinion of Mark Davies is exactly a part of the problem. The problem is too much focus on frequency. That is ok for a beginner. But in the long run, we need those less frequent words for every day stuff. Frequency is not the same thing as importance.

I find it extremely short sighted that people want to learn only stuff they are gonna say every day. In our native languages, we have a lot of vocab we don't say that often but we say it actively and right whenever we need to.

And am I the only one around here with experience with foreign doctors and hospitals (not only in the professional sense), foreign policemen, getting stuck somewhere due to a technical problem, car crashes abroad, simply needing the words for household items, and so on? In situations like that, it is simply really impractical to start searching your dictionary for every word.

Why I am convinced anyone striving to get a practical high level in a language needs more than a frequency list and a pocket dictionary:
-sometimes, there is no time for searching.
-when you are searching too much (and what is "too much" depends on the native you are dealing with), you look like a moron and make things complicated.
-too much searching can cause loss of respect. We are not always talking about weather while drinking tea in a café. We are learning languages to serve us in various situations. That includes heated ones with stress included, and including really unpleasant people who will use any advantage over you. You definitely don't want to need a dictionary in those moments.
-Large vocabulary is a sign of a high enough level. And without that, many people will treat you as inferior. Not in the touristy situations. In the more complicated yes.
-You would be surprised by the stuff many dictionaries don't contain (for example, I once had a dictionary by a well reputed publisher, that didn't include the word for "heating". You might agree solving a non functional heating is quite important in winter and communicating with the hotel staff without the word about it would have been complicated)

The English natives may not be bothered that much, they can always play it like "everyone on the planet is obliged to know our language well, we don't care". But the rest of the planet needs at least one language at a high level or face the consequences.

It is sometimes not easy for me to remember English is a foreign language to me (Not when I am writing, I speak worse), but I could actually use the experience for examples too. I got advantages exactly because I know lots of vocabulary. When you need the language in real life, you need to know lots and lots of vocabulary, including stuff the natives know but don't say or write often enough for the stuff to get to the frequency lists.

I know people, who suck exactly because of low vocabulary (among other problems), but still fake the knowledge sometimes and damage other people. One such person has damaged my dad in business several times and I know exactly why, as he someone takes me to meetings for interpreting. The person is supposedly doing stuff right, he may have learnt a frequency list well. But he has never bothered to learn the vocab that really matters for his job and is not on the frequency lists. How does he face his incompetence? Not by studying and rectifying the situation. Sometimes he lies, sometimes he lets stuff get lost in translation conveniently (for him), sometimes he makes the situation look like "noo, of course I understand, I am just trying to find a way to politely translate the unreasonable crap my stupid Czech client says".

I have observed quite a lot of people in real life situations abroad. Really, not knowing enough useful vocabulary is a huge problem. And the frequency lists are not a solution. For a beginner: sure. But not in the long run. We could discuss the order at which the words are introduced (campanile in the second unit of my Italian textbook surprised me) and we would find troubles. But I don't think the coursebook makers deserve so much criticism for introducing the words not on a frequency list

What I think would be an ideal solutions:
Designing the language coursebook series focused a bit more on the desired end result at the end of the series and not just on CEFR and the immediate result of the unit.
That would lead to more frequent words in the early books and fewer "rare" vocab lists falling on the beginners and disgusting them (understandably).
More focus on the useful vocab for everyday stuff in the intermediate and advanced books. I find it stupid, that you are being flooded with the everyday and boring vocab at the A1 and A2, when you are far from using the language much in the real life anyways. But from B1 on, the books suddenly pretend everything like that has been learnt and it is time only for talking about newspapers, current affairs, politics, ecology, love, and other such stuff, leaving the learner incompetent in many normal situations of your life.
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