Dealing with German dialects

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Iversen
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby Iversen » Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:37 pm

Speaking about ongoing changes in German: I once bought "Der Dativ is dem Genitiv sein Tod" folge 1+2 by Bastian Sick - but I would not have noticed the demise of the genitive in favour of the dative if he hadn't told me, and I still see and hear lots of genitives so maybe its death sentence was a bit premature...
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby księżycowy » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:22 am

I'm going to interrupt just to say, thanks for bringing this thread back to the forefront! I'm reading with great interest. :)
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby lichtrausch » Mon Feb 20, 2023 2:12 am

«Büschù ùmmi mit de Fabienne ga karysiere?» – How a unique Swiss mixed language is fighting for survival

Zwei Varianten existieren von der Stadtfreiburger Mundart – das «bolze» mit der französischen und das Bolz mit der schweizerdeutschen Ausgangssprache.

«Elle se trouve où, ta moutr?», fragt die welsche Stéphanie. «Si isch mit iiras Ggopyna ga patyniere», antwortet der deutschsprachige Peter.

(«Wo ist deine Mutter?» – «Sie ist mit ihren Freundinnen eislaufen gegangen.»)


Weil Französisch in Freiburg die Mehrheitssprache darstellt, passen sich die Bewohner mit schweizerdeutschem Hintergrund eher an. Dies führe dazu, dass das deutsche Bolz kreativer sei, sagt die frühere Dozentin. Will heissen: Dem Französischen werden mehr Wörter entlehnt. Nicht selten werden dabei die Verb-Endungen eingedeutscht – «patiner» wird etwa zu «patyniere».[...]

Doch wie schreibt man eine Sprache, die eigentlich nur gesprochen wird? «Es gibt keine festen Regeln, und vor mir hat es niemand gewissenhaft gemacht. Also habe ich mich entschieden, die germanische Phonetik zu verwenden», sagt Kern-Egger. Die aus dem Französischen stammende, im Bolz verwendete «habitation» (Wohnung) wird somit zur «Abytassiong». Der «hoquet» (Schluckauf) zum «Hogge». Das macht es für Deutschschweizer einfacher – sie können lesen, wie es geschrieben ist. Romands hingegen sind verloren.

«Ds Lääbe isch nid liechts gsyy. Me meem sy ong le puwe: Ma wettis nid andersch haa – pu riängj ùù Mongd.»

(«Wir hatten ein schwieriges Leben. Aber auch wenn wir könnten: Wir würden nichts ändern wollen – um nichts in der Welt.»)

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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby Cavesa » Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:23 pm

drp9341 wrote:Summary:
1. How hard is it to socialize with German speakers of a different dialect if you speak standard German at a B2+ level.
2. How hard is it to become "fluent" in a dialect, (obviously this will vary depending on the dialect.)
3. How would you compare the German dialects to lets say... The Romance Languages... or even English dialects/accents.
4. What do foreigners generally do when they move somewhere where everyone speaks dialect?


Thanks folks. I want to post an interesting side note about Irish accents, but I might save that for a later post!


I live in the Switzerland. When learning German, my absolute priority is to use it at work and to use it to improve my career. Anything else is a bonus I either care about a bit (they have a big and rather cheap book market), or not really (vast majority of German media or culture). So, signing up into a swiss and highly flexible langauge school (more about my current regrets in my log), I had hoped to get Swiss teachers, and to get access to both the standard German and the Swiss dialect. I was so wrong!!!!!

I am B2 at normal German. And I am as far away from the Swiss dialectS as ever.

1.very. Even they have trouble, because the Swiss German in one region can very from that in another. They use either standard with other people (including other German natives), or they use two Swiss German dialectS and understand each other based on exposure and being used to it (apparently something like Czech and Slovak natives having bilingual conversations).

So far, I have not been socializing at all, but I have had some germanophone patients. I am still pretty limited, being just B2, but at some points it served extremely well. I was using my B2 standard German, they were using rather standard German too. In some cases, I had a family translating for an elderly totally Swiss Germanophone patient, and it was like a page with many blank spaces :-D

2.Extremely, unless you move to one place and really integrate there. As I've written: I am in the Switzerland. I need German to communicate with the germanophone Swiss. I am even paying for a local language school. But still, the teachers are mostly German or Austrian immigrants, I haven't seen a single Swiss there yet. Perhaps they do have some in other cities,I don't know. And they openly say they don't teach Swiss German, exactly because the dialectS (insisting on the plural) are so complicated and vary a lot, it is not one dialect.

Nevertheless some resources try to teach Swiss German. I think Schritte has an Austrian and a Swiss version, but that goes only up to B1. I haven't really tried.

3.My experience has been very limited so far. But I would really compare the standard "German German" and the Swiss dialects I've heard samples of to Czech-Slovak. I would expect there to be a continuum, some dialects being pretty close, some a bit more distant. I suspect they might be closer to Austrian German perhaps. I think German dialects (even the German German dialects I've heard in some of the "hey, these are dialects" chapters of my coursebooks so far) are more distant and diverse than the various French dialects within Europe (Quebequois is a special case). Perhaps close in variety to the Spanish dialects.

4.They speak standard and the locals usually speak standard or an intelligible version of dialect to them.
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby Irena » Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:53 pm

Cavesa wrote:But I would really compare the standard "German German" and the Swiss dialects I've heard samples of to Czech-Slovak.

Well, if they're as close as Czech and Slovak, then you probably just need to learn standard German, and then maybe spend some time listening to podcasts and such in the main Swiss dialects in order to get used to them. Or do they not make any such podcasts...?

Personally, I have little issue with Slovak, though I've never studied it. But of course, my understanding of Slovak is based not only on my knowledge of Czech, but on my knowledge of three Slavic languages. Heh, maybe it would help if you learned something like Dutch, in addition to German? :lol:
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby tungemål » Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:59 pm

I like to read about German dialects, but I'm glad I don't have to learn them.

I think Swiss German could be a separate language, but it seems it's not written - they write "normal" German in Schweiz? Bavarian is also very different from standard German and I could probably not understand it even though I understand standard German.

Dutch would not help with these dialects. Dutch would be more similar (but not the same) to Northern German dialects, what is called "Plat" or Low German.
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby Iversen » Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:00 pm

I have briefly discussed the exorbitant number of names for Germany in my log (because I didn't want to clutter up this admirably concise thread). But I also spent a few words on the secretive Swiss German, and one thing I wondered how it can survive when you almost have to learn a new language if you cross from one valley to another - and have a widely accepted alternative known to just about everybody, namely English High German.

I also wrote about German dialects etc. about a month ago (while discussing Lëtzebuergesch, which now is recognized as a language in its proper right), and yes - Bavarian seems to be slightly bothersome compared to most of the rest.
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby daegga » Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:04 pm

It takes some getting used to, but in written form those upper German dialects are not so hard to figure out (at least if you speak one of them already)
https://als.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte
https://bar.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hoamseitn
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby Kraut » Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:24 pm

Swiss German

this page mentions some important factors:
- Hochdeutsch is the written standard form, there is no other written standard form in Switzerland but Hochdeutsch
- all Swiss-German dialects are intercomprehensible
- all social classes speak dialect, there is no linguistic social marker (I remember that in my school days, "broad" Swabian was regarded as vulgar and uneducated)
- Swiss children are confronted with Hochdeutsch rather late, when they enter school and learn to write, but what happens in Kindergarten?

https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerla ... lekte.html

Schweizerdeutsch

Die in der Schweiz am weitesten verbreitete Sprache ist Schweizerdeutsch, unter diesem Oberbegriff ist eine grosse Vielfalt alemannischer Dialekte zusammenfasst. Diese werden von einer grossen Mehrheit der Bevölkerung im deutschsprachigen Teil des Landes gesprochen. Die Dialekte sind Alltagssprache in jedem Bereich und für alle sozialen Schichten.

Zwischen einzelnen Regionen gibt es bedeutende Dialekt-Unterschiede (zum Beispiel zwischen den Regionen Basel, Zürich und Bern). Zudem gibt es innerhalb der grossen Sprachregionen zahlreiche Dialekt-Untergruppen. Doch alle Schweizerdeutsch sprechenden Personen verstehen sich gegenseitig.

Gewisse Dialekte sind gekennzeichnet von sehr starken regionalen Eigenheiten oder besonderen Akzenten wie beispielsweise der Oberwalliser Dialekt, der im deutschsprachigen Teil des Kantons Wallis gesprochen wird, oder das «Seislerisch» im deutschsprachigen Teil des Kantons Freiburg.
Das Schweizerdeutsch ist keine Schriftsprache, abgesehen von informeller Kommunikation zum Beispiel in persönlichen Nachrichten. Für den Schriftverkehr bedient man sich der hochdeutschen Sprache. Kleine Kinder lernen erst beim Eintritt in die Schule Hochdeutsch.



https://www.idiotikon.ch/hoerproben
Nach Regionen geordnete Liste mit Hörproben

--------------------


----------------
dialect or Hochdeutsch in Kindergarten?

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... %C3%A4rten

https://www.fritzundfraenzi.ch/gesellsc ... -nachteil/

Sollen Kindergartenkinder im Dialekt oder in Hochdeutsch unterrichtet ­werden? Das ist eine Frage, die in der Schweiz oft zu hitzigen Diskussionen führt. Jetzt hat eine Studie gezeigt, dass der Dialekt keinen negativen Einfluss auf den Erwerb der Schriftsprache hat.
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Re: Dealing with German dialects

Postby Doitsujin » Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:48 am

tungemål wrote:I think Swiss German could be a separate language, but it seems it's not written - they write "normal" German in Schweiz?
In the workplace, Swiss German is used in internal messages and e-mails, however, for official communication, Standard German is used. Ads are also often in Swiss German. For more information see «Häsch dini Ovo hüt scho gha?» - Dialekt in der Werbung
Fun fact, you easily tell whether a Standard German text was written by native Swiss speakers, because the ß ligature isn't used in Switzerland. (They use ss instead of ß.)
Last edited by Doitsujin on Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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