Opportunity Cost of FSI Category V languages

[Daristani]

I don't have a dog in this fight, never having even contemplated learning a language like Chinese. But I do follow the debates on the issue and think people taking up the challenge and wondering how to proceed might find the following two blog posts, as well as the associated comments, of interest:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=189 (How to learn to read Chinese)

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=10554 (How to learn Chinese and Japanese)

[leosmith]

I don't have a dog in this fight, never having even contemplated learning a language like Chinese. But I do follow the debates on the issue and think people taking up the challenge and wondering how to proceed might find the following two blog posts, as well as the associated comments, of interest:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=189 (How to learn to read Chinese)

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=10554 (How to learn Chinese and Japanese)

And the 2nd & 3rd(rebuttle) posts of this thread.

[Skynet]

if I had a JACK-native wife

Just curious - did you invent that acronym? Fist time I've seen it, but I'll definitely use it. Because I don't speak Arabic, I can say "I don't know JACK!"

I do not know if I invited it, but I thought of it when I realised that FIGS = French Italian German Spanish. I looked at the list of the C5 languages and came up with the acronym JACK (Japanese Arabic Chinese Korean). If I am the first person who thought of it, I demand compensation for my copyright.

Yeah, you certainly don't know JACK!

[reineke]

Cat V 88 weeks

FIGS
French 30 weeks
Italian 24 weeks
German 36 weeks

That's 90 weeks. If you were to study Italian after French you could knock off a couple of weeks. Still, that's a FIG, not FIGS.

F>I>P>S
30+3x24 = 102 weeks
If you apply a 20,30, and 40 pct discount on ISP you get 84 weeks.

Of course after you roll 4 balls up that hill ...

[smallwhite]

... the 5th ball, the Cat V, will become a lot easier as well.

[Beli Tsar]

1. Do you believe the relative FSI ratios are somewhat accurate? If not, why?

No idea, I don't know anything... But on the other hand my French vocabulary is something like 4* as large as my Ancient Greek vocabulary. French I have somehow picked up more than 12-13000 words with a couple of years of (astonishingly bad) school lessons, a few hours on duolingo, and a few holidays. All those loanwords just make it too easy.
Ancient Greek I have read daily for several years, besides drilling flashcards - I'm sure in terms of effective hours I've spent more than 4* as many. And compared to a category V Ancient Greek is doubtless a walk in the park.

2. Did/Does this effect your choice of language to study or the order you study multiple languages in?

Yes, to some extent. I'd love to learn classical Chinese, but if I ever do, it will be when I retire.

More importantly, it affects how far I aim in each language. I'd love to aim for the C1/C2 levels people on here attain. But realistically, the languages I've worked on, and plan to work on, are all category IV. If I want to become a capable reader of Ancient Greek, be able to have informal chats in Farsi and (perhaps) give short talks on very circumscribed topics, and read Biblical Hebrew (with perhaps some podcasts/TV/books in modern Hebrew) I'd be pretty satisfied. They are hard enough that brushing up my French feels like it would be an easy side project - which of course is an illusion.

Life is just too short.

[zKing]

Cat V 88 weeks

FIGS
French 30 weeks
Italian 24 weeks
German 36 weeks

That's 90 weeks. If you were to study Italian after French you could knock off a couple of weeks. Still, that's a FIG, not FIGS.

F>I>P>S
30+3x24 = 102 weeks
If you apply a 20,30, and 40 pct discount on ISP you get 84 weeks.

You've found my Achilles heel. I was a Computer Science / Mathematics double major, so by definition I have no ability to do basic arithmetic.

I think I just took the 600 hours for Cat 1 from titles in the link below and thought roughly 4 x 600 = 2400 and that was pretty close to the 2200 hours for Cat V. And I definitely missed that German is Cat II which is an extra 150 hours.
https://www.atlasandboots.com/foreign-s ... ifficulty/

And you are right, with discounts on related languages, I'd bet FIPS is possible in roughly the same time frame. This is more of an order of magnitude kind of thing anyhow. 3 or 4 languages for the price of 1 is pretty daunting either way.

Your analysis is more accurate, thanks!

[patrickwilken]

Although I do take the FSI categories seriously I have never really been sure they mean.

If the FSI says that Mandarin takes 4x longer than say Spanish, does that mean:

1. At each point from A1 to C2 Mandarin takes 4x longer to learn?
or
2. From A1 to (say) B1/B2 Mandarin takes 4x longer, but that thereafter things are a lot more equal?

I can imagine No. 2 is more accurate, because some of things that makes Mandarin so hard/slow to learn at the beginning (tones, differing grammar etc) are mastered by B2 level, and the rest is then mostly vocabulary, and while Mandarin vocabulary might be harder to learn, it needn't be 4x harder. The FSI levels are based on how long it takes someone to get to an intermediate level (B1/B2) aren't they?

Anyway the FSI categories did make a difference for me. I'm in my early 50s. It took me about five years to get to about a C1 level in German. I'd love to learn Mandarin or perhaps Japanese, but thought that it might be in my early 70s before I am a comfortable C1 is off-putting. So I went with Spanish. If I thought I could learn Mandarin to a decent level in 10 years I would be willing to reconsider things.

[rdearman]

Anyway the FSI categories did make a difference for me. I'm in my early 50s. It took me about five years to get to about a C1 level in German. I'd love to learn Mandarin or perhaps Japanese, but thought that it might be in my early 70s before I am a comfortable C1 is off-putting. So I went with Spanish. If I thought I could learn Mandarin to a decent level in 10 years I would be willing to reconsider things.

But isn't this more "time-on-task" than total time? For example it took you 5 years, but did you study 8 hours a day? Would German have taken you 5 years if you studied it for 8 hours a day 365 days a year? You might get to C1 Chinese in 2 years if you put enough time into it?

I realise this is a pretty subjective statement, just pointing out the time-on-task aspect.

[patrickwilken]

But isn't this more "time-on-task" than total time? For example it took you 5 years, but did you study 8 hours a day? Would German have taken you 5 years if you studied it for 8 hours a day 365 days a year? You might get to C1 Chinese in 2 years if you put enough time into it?

That's a fair point. I guess I just can't imagine spending more time on Chinese than I did on German so it's not likely that I could learn it any faster. Perhaps if I lived in China it would make a difference...

Can you really get to C1 Mandarin in two years? Just curious...