Opportunity Cost of FSI Category V languages

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reineke
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Re: Opportunity Cost of FSI Category V languages

Postby reineke » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:02 pm

zKing wrote:
reineke wrote:Cat V 88 weeks

FIGS
French 30 weeks
Italian 24 weeks
German 36 weeks

That's 90 weeks. If you were to study Italian after French you could knock off a couple of weeks. Still, that's a FIG, not FIGS.

F>I>P>S
30+3x24 = 102 weeks
If you apply a 20,30, and 40 pct discount on ISP you get 84 weeks.

You've found my Achilles heel. I was a Computer Science / Mathematics double major, so by definition I have no ability to do basic arithmetic. :lol:

I think I just took the 600 hours for Cat 1 from titles in the link below and thought roughly 4 x 600 = 2400 and that was pretty close to the 2200 hours for Cat V. And I definitely missed that German is Cat II which is an extra 150 hours.

And you are right, with discounts on related languages, I'd bet FIPS is possible in roughly the same time frame. This is more of an order of magnitude kind of thing anyhow. 3 or 4 languages for the price of 1 is pretty daunting either way. :D

Your analysis is more accurate, thanks!


If you look at DLI numbers, you can only "do" F+G (plus a three-week deserved vacation) in the time it would take you to bring a CAT IV language to an honest B2. As for FIPSing it, assuming a 30 pct discount on languages 2 and 3 it would appear you can "only" do three Romance languages, with a week to spare. Cat III plus a single CAT I already exceeds the learning load of a CAT IV language by 10 weeks.
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Re: Opportunity Cost of FSI Category V languages

Postby IronMike » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:05 pm

reineke wrote:During my interview with a US consular officer in a Cat III language I was constantly leaning over to be as close as possible to the booth. My ears wanted to suction cup the glass. He had to repeat and rephrase himself so many times that he switched to English. You can do that too in under $40K/1000 hours.

It is known among the USG agencies that employ language-capable personnel that the FSI test is easier than the DLPT, to the tune of FSI over-grading by a full point. I've worked with foreign service officers who scored 3+ or 4 on their test who had trouble with remembering the accusative plural ending of a regular noun in Russian. And I've worked with uniformed service members with 3 or 3+ in speaking who have impressed native speakers so much the native speakers assumed the service member was a heritage speaker.

reineke wrote:DLI also assesses students using the Interagency Language Roundtable (ILR) scale, which bases language proficiency on a scale of 0-5. While Level 5 means someone has a complete fluency of the language, DLI focuses mainly on getting students around Level 2 in overall proficiency.

DLI is moving to a basic course graduation requirement of 2+L/2+R/2S by 2022.
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Re: Opportunity Cost of FSI Category V languages

Postby DaisyMaisy » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:52 am

Random curiosity...why are Persian and Dari Category III, and Pashto Category IV? In my (admittedly near total) ignorance I lump those together in my head as "similar". I wonder if other Indo European languages are in this "hardest" category along with Arabic and the others?
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Re: Opportunity Cost of FSI Category V languages

Postby reineke » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:10 am

DaisyMaisy wrote:Random curiosity...why are Persian and Dari Category III, and Pashto Category IV? In my (admittedly near total) ignorance I lump those together in my head as "similar". I wonder if other Indo European languages are in this "hardest" category along with Arabic and the others?


"It was originally Cat 3 and only required 44 weeks, but so many people failed the course that they increased it to cat 4 and 64 weeks. Now it's actually quite easy. I felt like I could've easily passed the DLPT around week 50 or so."

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=2

Nouns and adjectives are inflected for gender (masc./fem.), number (sing./plur.), and case (direct, oblique I, oblique II and vocative). The verb system is very intricate with the following tenses: present; subjunctive; simple past; past progressive; present perfect; and past perfect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashto_grammar
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Re: Opportunity Cost of FSI Category V languages

Postby Zegpoddle » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:04 pm

Beli Tsar wrote:
Obviously when the language in question is Mandarin, though, a lot of the knowledge from say, German, isn't particularly helpful...


That is true in regard to vocabulary, phonology, and language-specific syntax, but to my surprise, there is one important way in which having learned German IS helping me with Chinese, and it will probably help me with any further languages I decide to acquire.

I'm currently learning Mandarin Chinese in a classroom context (first semester in a community college course). Some students know more vocabulary than I do, or have better pronunciation (especially the ones with Chinese-speaking boyfriends, the benefits of which cannot be overstated), but there is one thing I'm able to do better than anyone else in our class of twelve students: I can mentally manipulate the grammar much more easily and automatically than my classmates can.

Our textbook is full of grammar practice activities that require us to perform some kind of syntactic transformation in response to cues or questions. After we have rehearsed such a task in pairs, the teacher calls on each student to recite aloud the "answer" to one of the exercise items. I use the word "recite" because that is exactly what almost every other student in the class does. They write out their responses in full (usually in pinyin) and then simply read them aloud. I think I'm the only student in the class who never pre-writes oral responses. When the teacher calls on me, I glance at the cue in the book and then construct the answer in real time, doing all the processing in my head.

Some of the other students have asked me how I'm able to do that. The answer is that learning German taught me that skill. German was the first language I studied that has case grammar. It was very difficult at first, and like most beginning students of German, I spent the first few months speaking incredibly slowly as the gears churned in my mind, desperately trying to get all the case endings right in time for the words to come out correctly by the time I reached them in my spoken utterance. Also like most students of German, there came a day when I woke up and was suddenly able to do it all practically unconsciously, without having to focus so much attention on the word endings. Lining up the articles, adjective forms, and noun endings by gender, number, and case became second nature to me, and that was when I felt I had achieved real fluency. All of the visible struggle was gone, and I became able to speak quickly and keep up with native speakers.

Quite unexpectedly, that skill has turned out to be transferable. It helped me when I went on to learn some Russian (which has even more cases than German), and now it is helping me with Chinese. I'm convinced that what makes me the best in the class at speedily processing those mental permutations that we call "grammar" is the fact that I built up that cognitive muscle when I learned German. I expect it will help me acquire the grammatical patterns of any language I study in the future. I wouldn't say that I got that same assist from French, which I learned before German. French grammar is easy for a native speaker of English. German, with its genitive and accusative and dative cases and verbs postponed to the end of a dependent clause, presents much more of a challenge (and Russian still more), but scrambling up that steep hillside turned out to be worth the struggle. It gave me a facility with grammar that is proving to be useful far beyond the confines of the language family in which I first developed that skill.

My next language after Chinese will be Japanese, and while I expect my learning of Japanese kanji to receive a boost from my knowing some of the Chinese Hanzi from which the former derive, I'll also be playing close attention to whether the general ability to learn characters is also a skill that grows easier with time and practice, especially in the case of kanji that are specific to Japanese and totally new to me. I'll get back to you in seven years on that. :)
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