Studying after loss of motivation

[Xenops]

I had started a thread a couple of years ago related to this: Learning a Language You Don't Love

The first language I lost enthusiasm for was Spanish: I'm guessing I had a high B1 or a low B2 after my high school and college classes. People advised me to continue it because it's useful in the U.S. Otherwise, I had no real interest in the language.

Currently I'm debating on whether I should continue French: like Spanish, it does not hold my linguistic curiosity (there are weirder languages to learn, like Japanese, Gaelic and Turkish). Unlike Spanish, however, I can find instances where I think "if I knew the language, I would use it". A big example would be the plethora of French comics I could read versus the small number that are translated. I would also be interested in making my future comics be available in multiple languages. So it might be a matter of finding learning resources that would make the learning most enjoyable.

I am working on Japanese, and you can read about my decisions regarding that in my log.

[Cavesa]

I think this is a rather common problem. And while we could expect ourselves to be ready for the cultural differences and shock thanks to the lots of information on the internet (I've read quite a lot of blogs of people moving abroad, several to Japan, and speaking about things that seemed to be similar to what you describe). But on the other hand, some idealistic romantic ideas are getting stronger and stronger. Actually, the reasons most people learn a language for (the most promoted ones) are actually the worst sometimes, when it comes to unrealistic expectations, setting oneself up for disappointment, and loss of motivation.

Nope, we are not long awaited anywhere, noone will be excited and give us a Nobel prize just for having learnt he language and moved to the country, because all the natives have already checked these points (and better and earlier than us). It is an important thing to know. Contrary to popular belief, to the common internet "wisdom", or the advertisements of every language school and learning product, it is hard to make foreign friends. It is hard to become a part of the society. It is complicated to build a life elsewhere. It is very often worth it, but it is simply not like in the advertisements.

There are just a few specific situations making it easy. For example the student exchanges, but you mostly make friends with other foreigners there. But other than that, making local friends is hard. In some places, it is easier. In others, it is extra hard. I'd guess Japan belongs to the second category, due to different mentality in some ways and because the social connections are a general problem there (I've read too many various sources about people there working for so much time they simply don't have time to make friends in general).

I admire your courage and all the qualities you have shown by moving there and staying for some time. You have a lot to be proud of!

Also, the situation of an English teacher is different from any other job. There are many advantages but easy cultural immersion is not one of them. You are a rare exception wanting this. I've met quite a lot of native ESL teachers and they usually do this job exactly because they don't have to mix with the natives but still can live abroad (and many basically run away from lives they dislike or careers they've failed by simply doing a CELTA). They don't have to learn the local language and even claim it is an advantage, and they don't have to make any ties to the new country while still getting the bragging rights "I have lived abroad". They are just glad to be paid for their native language and revered without much criticism. It is a hard place for someone with your ambitions. You are a bright exception.

I think you have only two options. Number one is letting Japanese go. In your case, you would still lose relatively little, as you know so many languages and have achieved so much that you can make a great life full of new experiences with or without Japanese. You don't need to torture yourself any longer and waste time on something that doesn't bring you any joy.

The other one is finding new sources of motivation, preferably independent from other people. I had to do this too years ago, after some unpleasant experiences with French . The culture of any country is a vast, endless territory. Being in the country is great not just because you can meet the people, but you can also be in their position in some ways. So, finding a hobby typical of Japan, focusing on a specific part of literature or cinematography, becoming passionate about the history, such things could work.

Whatever you do, I am sure you will choose the right option and you'll profit a lot from your experience in the end.

[Denzagathist]

First of all, I just want to say a big ありがとうございました (thank you) to everyone who has replied. All of your responses were excellent and thoughtful, and have given me a lot to think about. Some of what you wrote were things that I already knew but just needed to hear from someone else in order to fully accept. I truly appreciate all of the advice and encouragement that you’ve sent my way.

I’ll be the devil's advocate and say that the issue is perhaps that you're simply losing interest in Japanese after having experienced the reality of the culture. It's not an uncommon story, and it happened to my old flatmate: she studied Japanese for years, solo and at University, and reached a good level then spent a year in the country. After this, she realised and accepted that, as fascinating and beautiful the country and culture were, Japan wasn't the place for her and she couldn't see herself living there in the long term. She found it to be a very closed society: she struggled to connect with people and make friends there, and always felt like an outsider. She mostly stopped studying the language too since she didn't have much use for it anymore. It does seem like a shame after all the time and effort, but consider the sunken cost fallacy: there's no use in continuing to pour in more time and effort just because you've already invested a lot, especially if you're just studying for personal interest. Forcing yourself to do activities in the language or intensify your studies could just increase your frustration.

This actually sounds exactly like my situation. I don’t dislike the language itself per se, but it’s now associated with my frustrating experience in the country, which has, unfortunately, poisoned my attitude toward the language. From my experience, your friend’s impressions of living in Japan as a foreigner are 100% correct, as is what Cavesa wrote about the social connections (or lack thereof) in Japan.

I’m tempted to agree with you about the sunken cost fallacy from a theoretical standpoint – Japanese is notoriously difficult, and if I don’t enjoy it anymore and don’t anticipate using it in the future, then what’s the point of continuing to put in all that effort? But from a more emotional standpoint, I don’t know if I would actually stop studying it altogether because, as zenmonkey suggested, I’d hate to lose what I have already learned, should I choose to return to it in the future. That said, I think putting it on the back burner for a while could be enormously beneficial.

Make sure your not demoralized. You might believe that the problem is demotivation but it could be demoralization. I spoke about this as zen said, but the presentation is in French. However there is a English summary on my blog. ‪http://rdearman.org/blog.html#org7a9ece3

I haven’t yet watched your presentation, but I checked out the summary on your blog and it was interesting to consider. I think I might actually be suffering from a combination of both demotivation and demoralization in the case of Japanese.

Personally when I'm demotivated I consider a few things - is it time for a break? Are my expectations about my ability realistic? Have I objectively looked at how far I've come? Do I really need to be goal oriented or task focused? How well do I trust this phase of my learning?

These are great questions, thank you. Somehow it had never occurred to me that simply taking a break was an option. Perhaps because I have so many emotions tied up with Japanese by now, my thoughts regarding it have become irrational; the only options I could conceive of were either to keep powering on through or to quit forever. I think a well-earned break may be in order once I leave Japan.

The question about how far I’ve come is also really useful. When I arrived in Tokyo last July, I could barely string a basic sentence together and couldn’t understand much of what people around me said. I’ve come a long way since then. I suspect that the progress only feels negligible because 6 years ago I was almost as advanced as I am now, but I have to remind myself that I stopped studying Japanese for over 4 years in between and essentially started again from zero last year.

And I suspect you could probably come back to it if you change your mind sometime in the next few years and pick it up really quite well.

You have done it great until now and it is completely fine to let it go if it isn't meaningful anymore. Maybe the interest in the language will come back in the future, maybe not. Either way, don't worry. Just focus on what really matters to you at this moment in your life and what truly makes you happy.

My point is only that your feelings about Japanese are subject to change, you are at one extreme now, the pendulum will probably swing, no need to make any decisions about Japanese at the moment. And my goodness, it’s totally okay to take a break. Like years. Japanese isn’t going anywhere.

Again, this is another great point that should have been obvious to me, but wasn’t for whatever reason. Japanese is certainly not the first language I’ve become demotivated in. My feelings might be the most extreme for Japanese, but they are not unique. Once I started thinking about it, I realized that I had had similar feelings at one time or another about several other languages, and I eventually warmed back up to each of them.

Also, the situation of an English teacher is different from any other job. There are many advantages but easy cultural immersion is not one of them.

You’re right, the English teacher dynamic is really strange, in a way that I hadn’t really expected. One of my main goals in coming to Japan was to improve my Japanese, and yet I spend most of every day being specifically required not to speak Japanese. I’m expected to speak English at all times and am not even supposed to let on that I can understand Japanese. I chose to ignore those rules to a certain extent, if only because I didn’t want to be perceived as an ignorant foreigner who expects the locals to learn English but who had made no efforts of his own to learn the local language. Still, because of the nature of my job, speaking English in Japan has come to feel remarkably normal and I’ve become complacent.

Do try to make some Japanese friends, I suppose it will make a difference.

Also since you are in country i think you should do things in Japanese. Take a diving class, learn to paint, learn sword fighting (kendo) or whatever,but get out in the community. Determine to never be alone and always be talking.

These are good suggestions, and definitely things that I will keep in mind for my upcoming move to Germany. When I compare my year in Japan with my year in Croatia, it’s clear why I was able to learn Croatian to a high level during that time, but not Japanese. I made a lot of Croatian friends, spoke almost exclusively Croatian all day and every day, and was far more integrated into the local community. But unfortunately, it’s basically too late for these here; I have under three weeks left in Japan and am in “departure mode” at this point — trying to finish things off rather than starting any new projects.

By the way, welcome back. You've accomplished a lot since HTLAL. I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts.

Thank you so much! I’m looking forward to becoming a more active contributor to this forum. I’ve missed this community.

[tomgosse]

My situation is somewhat similar to yours. In my case I have the motivation but no energy to keep studying. I had a heart attack in the middle of May. You can find the story here: heart attack. I would advise you to read the replies to my question, "How to restart after a heart attack?" Wish you the best of luck.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Another thought. When I was in Germany I felt my German was incomplete, that I had so much more studying to do, that I would never be good enough. Now, my German feels just fine. Turns out “Not good enough for life on the ground” is the same as “Outstanding Tourist/Content Consumer of Native Media.” Your Japanese may already be exactly where it needs to be.

I’ve been B2 in German for 20 years, and it’s absolutely perfectly fine.

[Xenops]

Also, the situation of an English teacher is different from any other job. There are many advantages but easy cultural immersion is not one of them.

You’re right, the English teacher dynamic is really strange, in a way that I hadn’t really expected. One of my main goals in coming to Japan was to improve my Japanese, and yet I spend most of every day being specifically required not to speak Japanese. I’m expected to speak English at all times and am not even supposed to let on that I can understand Japanese. I chose to ignore those rules to a certain extent, if only because I didn’t want to be perceived as an ignorant foreigner who expects the locals to learn English but who had made no efforts of his own to learn the local language. Still, because of the nature of my job, speaking English in Japan has come to feel remarkably normal and I’ve become complacent.

Do try to make some Japanese friends, I suppose it will make a difference.

Also since you are in country i think you should do things in Japanese. Take a diving class, learn to paint, learn sword fighting (kendo) or whatever,but get out in the community. Determine to never be alone and always be talking.

These are good suggestions, and definitely things that I will keep in mind for my upcoming move to Germany. When I compare my year in Japan with my year in Croatia, it’s clear why I was able to learn Croatian to a high level during that time, but not Japanese. I made a lot of Croatian friends, spoke almost exclusively Croatian all day and every day, and was far more integrated into the local community. But unfortunately, it’s basically too late for these here; I have under three weeks left in Japan and am in “departure mode” at this point — trying to finish things off rather than starting any new projects.

Another thought I had: I have talked to multiples of people that have either studied abroad in Japan, or are missionaries there. In fact, I'm praying about being a missionary myself in Japan. The thought I had was that if you have a community already established in Japan when you arrive, the experience is very different. It doesn't have to be a community of native Japanese speakers, either. I went on a missions trip there in 2011, and I had wonderful time--but I already had connections when I arrived. I stayed with missionaries (I also went alone, and not in a group). The missionaries served as a liaison to the culture, but they also were a "safe place" as I traversed this foreign land. I could turn to them for support. Conversely, a Christian friend studied abroad there for several months, and he was miserable: he knew absolutely nobody when he was there, and he continued to be alone the entire time. It sounded like there was no churches nearby. It doesn't sound like he made friends with other exchange students, either. I've also met people that taught English in Japan and wouldn't leave it unless they had to: I would have to conclude that they were able to find a community of support while being a "stranger in a strange land".

[Brun Ugle]

It’s also important to remember that it is very normal to go through an adjustment process when living in a different country. Most people start out very positive. They love the country and everything about it. Then they usually go through a period of disillusionment where they hate everything. And then they adjust and start liking the country again, but more realistically this time, with an awareness of its flaws. After moving to Norway, I went through a period of hating the language and studying every language except Norwegian, but then I adjusted. Now I speak Norwegian and I’m thinking of getting citizenship.

[Denzagathist]

Another thought. When I was in Germany I felt my German was incomplete, that I had so much more studying to do, that I would never be good enough. Now, my German feels just fine. Turns out “Not good enough for life on the ground” is the same as “Outstanding Tourist/Content Consumer of Native Media.” Your Japanese may already be exactly where it needs to be.

I’ve been B2 in German for 20 years, and it’s absolutely perfectly fine.

This is absolutely true, and requires revisiting your original goals. Living in Japan was never my plan -- it just happened -- and I don't think I will ever live here again in the future. I also have no interest in consuming native Japanese media, so whether I can or not is of little importance to me. BUT, should I ever decide to visit Japan again, I would certainly be more than sufficiently equipped to handle traveling around the country and chatting with people, which, now that I think of it, was all I ever really wanted to be able to do in Japanese. In that sense, I've actually reached (and exceeded) my original goals already. The only thing hanging me up at this point is my perfectionism.

It’s also important to remember that it is very normal to go through an adjustment process when living in a different country. Most people start out very positive. They love the country and everything about it. Then they usually go through a period of disillusionment where they hate everything. And then they adjust and start liking the country again, but more realistically this time, with an awareness of its flaws. After moving to Norway, I went through a period of hating the language and studying every language except Norwegian, but then I adjusted. Now I speak Norwegian and I’m thinking of getting citizenship.

I am definitely aware of this process, having gone through it twice before. In some cases, I think it's just a matter of simply not liking the country/culture enough -- or, not being willing to invest the time and effort that would be necessary to reach that "full circle" moment in one's relationship with it. In Croatia and Turkey, I was willing. In Japan, I'm just not. I think Japan simply requires both more time and more effort than either Croatia or Turkey did, and yet my interest/motivation was significantly lower from the outset, and only decreased from there. I don't know how much longer would be required to actually come out of this disillusionment phase. Longer than I'm willing to put in, in any case.

[eido]

So let me get this straight, OP. You didn't like Japanese at all, and yet you kept learning it? Not criticizing, just curious.

[Denzagathist]

So let me get this straight, OP. You didn't like Japanese at all, and yet you kept learning it? Not criticizing, just curious.

Well, that's kind of the point of this thread, right? My original motivation for learning it is effectively gone, but I still feel compelled to continue.

As I've said before, I don't dislike the language itself. If anything I'm indifferent to it. I actually used to like Japanese a lot. But having realized that I'm not such a huge fan of the country or culture has caused me to lose interest in the language, too. Because I live in Japan, though, I feel like I have an obligation to continue studying it. I would feel ashamed if I couldn't speak Japanese well after having lived in Japan.

I originally started this thread seeking advice for how to reverse my apathy toward the language, or, alternatively, how to continue studying successfully in spite of it. But I think the responses I've received are more valuable and certainly more realistic. Namely, that it's okay to take a break (or even stop altogether) if it doesn't inspire anything in me anymore, and that I can always revisit it in the future if my motivation should return.