Anki/SRS unbelievers

[Xmmm]

I think you misunderstand me. The problem isn't learning the pronunciation of characters (or the ability to write them) with Anki (romanization schemes or audio work for that). The problem is learning it without them. Extensive reading after you've reached some level of competency in many languages may work fine, without Anki; I don't see how it would in character based languages, except once you've gotten to such a high level that you might encounter at most 1 unknown character every 5 pages in a normal book.

How to learn Chinese without Anki!

[Adrianslont]

Add audio?

I think you misunderstand me. The problem isn't learning the pronunciation of characters (or the ability to write them) with Anki (romanization schemes or audio work for that). The problem is learning it without them. Extensive reading after you've reached some level of competency in many languages may work fine, without Anki; I don't see how it would in character based languages, except once you've gotten to such a high level that you might encounter at most 1 unknown character every 5 pages in a normal book.

Ah yes, I did misunderstand you - I misread. I really shouldn’t post in the mornings before coffee.

[MacGyver]

I find it very boring and it can become very time consuming. I prefer just to read read read and encounter words over and over again that way.

[zenmonkey]

Using Anki for vocabulary is very YMMVish ...

What part of useful language learning isn't YMMV*?









*stands for Your Mileage May Vary - or the success of these methods may work more or less well for other people.

[kulaputra]

How to learn Chinese without Anki!

This article was both misleading and rather arrogant, bordering on xenophobic. If this person really only learns to read via reading subtitles while listening, how do they know pinyin, which they use in the article? Can they write, with correct stroke order? The author concludes by admitting they barely care about production skills. For anyone who cares to produce Chinese, I'm not sure this is good advice.

The article was also offputting in other ways. What's with the comment about Chinese WWII dramas being boring because they didn't feature the US Army? The world doesn't revolve around America. In general the author seems to really dislike Chinese media. If you have a barely concealed disgust for basically all Chinese TV, why learn Chinese? The author doesn't suggest watching dubbed movies because they are easier (that's common advice on this forum), but rather because they hate Chinese media and believe most people who aren't Chinese ("foreigners," but we can probably safely assume he means Westerners) agree with him. I find this to be arrogant and a reflection of his own myopia rather then an objective evaluation. It's also very essentialist.

Using Anki for vocabulary is very YMMVish ...

What part of useful language learning isn't YMMV*?

*stands for Your Mileage May Vary - or the success of these methods may work more or less well for other people.

None, of course. That comment wasn't a criticism. I meant to say sometimes Anki does and sometimes doesn't make sense for non-character based languages, but it (almost) ALWAYS makes sense for character based language. I cannot think of a single non-Anki based strategy that is superior to an Anki-based strategy for learning to read and write Sinitic characters.

[smallwhite]

How about our own members? Which members don't use Anki/SRS and how do they compare to those who do?

[Bex]

How about our own members? Which members don't use Anki/SRS and how do they compare to those who do?

Twin #2 -- if he's an idiot -- faces a risk of getting discouraged if he keeps jumping into the deep end of the pool and wrestling with stuff that is beyond his abilities. If can keep those irrational impulses under control, he's got it made.

Maybe SRS is so popular because novice language learners get so lost after finishing courses and at that point the native material is SO difficult. They have no way of knowing what's important and what's not.

Maybe it's because Anki builds a new course for you...you input the data you wish to learn and it creates a never-ending course for you. It holds your hand and feeds you at appropriate intervals.

I have found diving into native content as a novice language learner extremely difficult...if not almost impossible. So I started SRS because it's easier to get input at a level I can "cope" with. And also because I didn't want to just give up because I couldn't cope with native materials.

It doesn't really matter to me if it's effective or not...as long as I don't stop learning.

It appears I am Twin number 2 and an idiot

[garyb]

This just feels like beating the usual SRS dead horse: some find it a useful tool, some don't feel the need for it and manage to learn languages just fine, and some misuse or overuse it and it ends up doing more harm than good. Most of the anti-SRS articles I've read over the years (including the one from the aforementioned guy who, if it's the one I'm guessing, is a bit of a tool with some bizarre opinions but gets accused of all sorts of evil because people love a good witch hunt) are based on the latter experience.

Interesting to read about experiences with Asian languages though; I've no experience myself but I get the impression that SRS is considered essential for them, rather than an optional extra like for European languages (at least on Anglo-centric forums like this), since learning the characters essentially comes down to memorisation.

Personally I'm all for taking shortcuts, and at intermediate and advanced levels I think sensibly-used SRS can be a slight shortcut for remembering those mid-frequency words that don't come up every day but are really useful when they do come up. I find it a bit crazy to see beginners in European languages using it (with the exception of subs2srs as an alternative to a conventional course for a language related to one they already know, like emk's experiment, but that's a whole other kettle of fish), or learners of any level spending more than a few minutes per day drilling flashcards.

[smallwhite]

How are grammar drills different from vocab drills? Should we start a thread for grammar drill unbelievers?

[iguanamon]

I don't use srs, but I can see how and why it has been useful for many learners. Some new learners abuse it and probably overly depend on it. Experienced learners (those who have learned a second language to a high level) use it as another tool in their arsenal. Like every useful way to learn in language-learning, srs is not a "magic bullet", neither are grammar drills, reading, listening, reading and listening, parallel texts, hyperlinear texts, subs2srs, Assimil, Pimsleur, FSI or grammar drills. Srs is a tool like any other. A builder needs more than a hammer to build a house and not every problem is a nail.

Subs2srs is a different kettle of fish. If it "were out of the box ready/plug and chug" for those who use windows and lack programming skills, it would be highly useful and much more popular among self-learners. From what I've seen, subs2srs, reinforces what a learner is reading and hearing in native materials so it helps a learner in both comprehension and momentum gains in going through native material.

Whether or not a learner is using srs effectively seems to depend upon how they are advancing. Could it be dropped and would learning suffer? It probably wouldn't suffer as long as the learner got more input and output. Is srs more effective than natural acquisition via reading, listening, speaking and writing? It can be argued that in the beginning stages it probably is... but there's always a point of diminishing returns with any method.

We have learners here who don't use srs- some like myself who have never used it, some who've tried it and didn't like it, some who've used it and got fed up with it and dropped it. I've learned languages without using it. I admire members here who use it effectively and efficiently like smallwhite and emk. Still, memorization and vocabulary acquisition can happen without using it. To each their own. People who don't use srs can and do learn languages.