Anki/SRS unbelievers

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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby Xmmm » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:32 pm

mouse wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote: ... and some might be linguistically unrelated to languages one already knows. As a native English speaker who learned Irish, these of course weren't issues for you, but it doesn't mean they aren't issues for others.


Because English and Irish are so closely related ...

I remember getting my Buntús Cainte books and thinking "what the hell, I thought this was a European language."
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby aokoye » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:58 am

reineke wrote:Graceffo: "To learn Mandarin, I attended six months of private lessons, 15-20 hours per week, at Taipei Language Institute, Kaohsiung, Taiwan. Because I wanted to learn as much vocabulary, grammar and usage as quickly as possible, I didn’t learn any Chinese characters or pinyin. My teacher and I practiced only listening and speaking. I read texts written in Taiwanese phonetic script (Bopomofo / Zhùyīn fúhào). And I didn’t do any writing at all.

Do you have a link for this quote? I ask because I essentially want to do that with Japanese (and to an extent Mandarin) but the other way around. I have no major desire to learn to verbally speak the language but am interested in learning to read. I mean there are likely plenty of ways I could figure that out myself, but reading whatever source you took that quote from would be interesting.
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reineke
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby reineke » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:22 am

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Last edited by reineke on Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby aokoye » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:08 am

ロータス wrote:
aokoye wrote:Do you have a link for this quote? I ask because I essentially want to do that with Japanese (and to an extent Mandarin) but the other way around. I have no major desire to learn to verbally speak the language but am interested in learning to read. I mean there are likely plenty of ways I could figure that out myself, but reading whatever source you took that quote from would be interesting.


My log is me doing this (for Mandarin). All you have to do is read with a dictionary. There are at least a few people I have seen do this with Japanese. If you want, I can send you my past links I have saved.

That would be great! It's funny I was actually just skimming through some of your log the other day and noticed that you seemed to be doing that.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby kulaputra » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:41 am

galaxyrocker wrote:People were learning languages well before SRS was a thing, and will continue to do so when the Next Big Thing arrives.


The fact that SRS was not discovered or consciously applied in a scientific manner does not mean it did not exist. It is a basic fact of our memory that hasn't changed in 200,000+ years. Possibly millions of years given that it probably works for animals too. The invention of rockets did not bring gravity into existence. The invention of Anki et. al. did not bring into existence the way human memory actually works. Everyone who has ever lived has in fact been subject to SRS, knowingly or not.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby NoManches » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:10 pm

It would be a lie if I said Anki wasn't helpful for me. I learned so many words and phrases with Anki, and it put me way above all of my classmates in college. I specifically remember taking Spanish 101 in college before summer break. During the summer, I added all of the vocabulary words from my Spanish 102 and 201 classes (that I knew I was going to take, and already had the books for). When it came time for those classes, I had already memorized all of the words in the grammar book plus a lot more that I picked up over the summer. After that I was a believer in Anki. Too much of a believer. My language learning revolved around Anki. I spent more time organizing my flashcards and adding audio and pictures to each card than I spent reading or watching TV in Spanish. It got pretty bad.

I think Anki allowed me to reach a solid B1 level (in addition to all of my travel to Mexico and Spanish classes I took....especially the ones I took after the 201 level course). After that, I kept using Anki when I should have ditched it for more books and magazines and whatnot. Anki sort of gave me a false sense of security: (I knew something like 6,000 + words in Spanish based on how many mature Anki cards I had......but could I always recognize those words outside of a flashcard program? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. Anki really helped me learn idioms and Mexican slang. Even with books and TV I never come across those words often enough.


Now that I no longer use Anki, I feel like I have more time to read and listen to podcasts. It does take me significantly longer to learn new words from reading, but once I learn those words I REALLY learn them. With Anki, I'd add the word and within a few encounters I would have it added to my vocabulary with no problem. The problem is that after quitting Anki, a lot of those less frequent words escaped my memory. I guess you can artificially boost your vocabulary with frequent words. If you keep doing anki forever you will be fine. Maybe after years of months of encountering those rare words they will forever be in your vocabulary, even if you stop Anki. I don't really know. Even now during conversation, there are words I once knew because of Anki that I can't even remember. Oh well. I just use a different word or use a few words to describe that word. It's usually not an issue.

I would never say Anki was fun. But, it was easy. I could do it anywhere. It took hardly any effort and was effective.

Im happy with what I'm doing now. Maybe it will take me longer to learn words and phrases but at least I'm doing it in a more natural manner. I like reading multiple books by the same author. This is a good way to encounter the same words over and over again.

For me it just comes down to the fact that I would spend so much time making Anki cards and organizing them and making them better that it was eating up so much of my time. I don't care how effective SRS is. The time I spend making cards and organizing them isn't worth it for me.

You might be different...but I am a bit OCD when it comes to thing like Anki and it's just not healthy for me.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby Sayonaroo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:48 pm

Just wanted to share this blog post I read that is about doing anki reviews.
http://learnjapaneseonline.info/2018/06 ... io-effect/

I thought it was especially relevant to the mattvsjapan youtube video since he took anki too seriously (not enough, suspending, deleting, marking stuff hard way too often, etc)
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby reineke » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:46 pm

Do You Need Spaced Repetition to Learn a Language?

"Some language learners are extremely excited about spaced repetition, and SRS in particular. There are several SRS programs and apps out there, and several people swear by them.

Is spaced repetition necessary though?

Yes and no.

The concept of exposing yourself to material over a long period of time is absolutely necessary, yes. Some programs promise to teach you 200 vocabulary words a day. Is that possible? Sure. But there’s no way that you’d be able to commit 200 words a day to your long-term memory. You’d basically be learning and brain-dumping each set of 200 every day. For a vocab word to stick, for example, you have to be exposed to that word over a long period.

But you do not need to focus obsessively on spaced repetition. Some people think that SRS is a magic potion, and that by using an app, they’ll learn the foreign language with minimal effort. Additionally, some people get caught up on optimizing their intervals: Do I expose myself to the material again after 3 days, or after a week? After three weeks, or after a month? They’re looking for just the right formula to get to their goals.

Honestly, that’s just kind of silly. I mean, remember:

People have been learning languages and foreign languages long before there were spaced repetition formulas, programs, and software.

I mean, spaced repetition works for some people, so if you enjoy it, use it. If you don’t, don’t.

Two Inexpensive Alternatives to SRS
So you want to learn a language and commit it to your long-term memory. But you either hate dealing with the headache of planning spaced repetition, or don’t want to pay for SRS. What do you do?

You have two stupidly simple options.

First, you can review old material often. Listen to language courses you’ve finished a long time ago, and then listen to them again a few weeks later. Or bust out old flash cards and go through them randomly.

Second, you can simply expose yourself to the language. Watch TV, listen to the radio, read books. Consuming language exposes you to dozens or even hundreds of words every minute, and the most common words – i.e., the most important words – will naturally be repeated over and over again. Not only that, but you’ll be exposed to other components of language besides vocabulary, such as grammar, phrases, and intonation, all of which tend to be ignored by some spaced repetition programs."

http://www.languagesurfer.com/2013/02/1 ... repetitio/

Studying w/o SRS? Share

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=1372
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby leosmith » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:40 am

NoManches wrote:You might be different...but I am a bit OCD when it comes to thing like Anki and it's just not healthy for me.

It's not healthy for a lot of people, imo. I wrote a blog post about this around a month ago - I use anki a lot, but in a limited manner now.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby patrickwilken » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:08 pm

kulaputra wrote:
I believe you are confusing competence with knowledge of competence (as the Rumsfeld quote goes, "There are known knowns...") and also confusing declarative knowledge with performative knowledge. Native speakers are perfectly competent and yet, without linguistic training, not familiar with how or why they are competent. They have little to no declarative knowledge and thus would fail a test where they were asked to explain WHY they speak the way they do, but their performative knowledge is literally the answer key if the test were to simply speak their native language. Declarative knowledge allows you to know all about the ATP cycle and how neurons compel muscle fibers to contract so you can pedal your bicycle, etc..; procedural knowledge, however, is what actually allows you to bike. You can have one without the other, and they have different utilities.


Thanks. That's exactly how I think about these things. The difference between Declarative vs Procedural knowledge (or as philosopher's like to say "knowing-how" vs knowing-what') is at the root of a lot of these discussions.

The central question what is the most effective method of improving procedural knowledge of a language.
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