Your Language Learning Weaknesses

General discussion about learning languages
Cavesa
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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:06 pm

tarvos wrote:I like conversational phrases, when I'm living in the country and need to get things done.

But that is because I lived abroad and really just needed to know what that dish behind the counter was. Sure won't help in China if you know how to say "Confucius was an eminent Chinese philosopher" in Mandarin, but you don't really know whether that dish behind the counter contains meat or not. Keep in mind some of us do have that issue as well.

It goes both ways, really. I do want to learn the grammar. I really do. But not at the cost of knowing how to read the most complicated stuff but being mute and deaf when you get into a practical situation. Sometimes, your needs change depending on the situation and the sad truth is, most people in the Czech Republic just aren't really going to have a use for French in their daily life unless they make an effort to figure out how to introduce it.


You're right, they won't bother to learn a foreign language (and I've seen the same problem not only in French teaching but also German) and find how to use it=get out of here or at least work for an international company. Instead, they will keep complaining and staying poor till the end of their lives.

I think there is a huge misunderstanding about what are the grammar explanations for. Many people seem to see them as something extra, something to learn "at the cost of being mute and deaf in a practical situation." Grammar is for those practical situations. Grammar allows us to make our own sentences and not just parrot the coursebook. The grammar knowledge and practice is the best way to start speaking and writing on our own.

Sure, my experience is limited to the european languages. But most people struggling to speak that I've ever met were struggling because they hadn't learnt the grammar. Not because of having learnt too much of it and having dumbly memorised too few phrases.
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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby tarvos » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:09 am

I don't really know. A lot of language has to be automatized in my experience. I don't really consider grammar when speaking in any language, unless it's a long, complicated phrase.
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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby garyb » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:28 am

Maybe being too invested in one learning philosophy is a language learning weakness? I remember a poster on the old forum (whose name I forget) who was determined to stick to the input method: avoiding speaking German whenever possible despite living in Berlin with a German wife, and steadfastly refusing to study grammar even though he admitted his grammar was a major weak point. He was very frank about his results, and eventually admitted what most of us know: input gets you quite far but most learners need other work on top of it in order to become a competent speaker in a reasonable amount of time. He's just one data point of course, but probably the best-documented example we've had of someone persisting with very input-focused learning over several years.

I'm not criticising that method in particular, and for every story like that there are probably twenty of failures with "speak from day one" and and fifty of "I studied grammar for years at school then went to the country and couldn't understand or say anything"; just using it to make a point about the danger of sticking rigidly to a very specific method (and telling others to do so too) rather than adapting your studies and working on your weak points.

Funnily enough I was chatting to a friend yesterday about his increasing frustration with Duolingo not teaching grammar explicitly and how that was really holding back his Spanish learning. That said, he doesn't get much input either despite my encouragement and I'm sure that's holding him back just as much. I also agree about ESL learners: 98% of the ones I've met would benefit enormously from a little quality time with a grammar book, even just a couple of hours. These thousands of hours of input from living and working in the UK for several years don't seem to be doing much to fix the basic mistakes in most of their sentences.
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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby Cavesa » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:41 pm

tarvos wrote:I don't really know. A lot of language has to be automatized in my experience. I don't really consider grammar when speaking in any language, unless it's a long, complicated phrase.


Exactly. And understanding how the grammar works makes it much easier for me to automatise. I don't consider it while speaking either (I sometimes do while writing, especially in Czech), and that's the sign of having learnt it well, no matter which tools and in what proportion were used to achieve this.
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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:12 pm

garyb wrote:Maybe being too invested in one learning philosophy is a language learning weakness? I remember a poster on the old forum (whose name I forget) who was determined to stick to the input method: avoiding speaking German whenever possible despite living in Berlin with a German wife, and steadfastly refusing to study grammar even though he admitted his grammar was a major weak point. He was very frank about his results, and eventually admitted what most of us know: input gets you quite far but most learners need other work on top of it in order to become a competent speaker in a reasonable amount of time. He's just one data point of course, but probably the best-documented example we've had of someone persisting with very input-focused learning over several years.


I think that was patrickwilken and his mega thread German: massive input in Berlin. More thoughts about it here: Krashen & some failures for massive input.
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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby Monox D. I-Fly » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:47 pm

garyb wrote:Maybe being too invested in one learning philosophy is a language learning weakness? I remember a poster on the old forum (whose name I forget) who was determined to stick to the input method: avoiding speaking German whenever possible despite living in Berlin with a German wife, and steadfastly refusing to study grammar even though he admitted his grammar was a major weak point. He was very frank about his results, and eventually admitted what most of us know: input gets you quite far but most learners need other work on top of it in order to become a competent speaker in a reasonable amount of time. He's just one data point of course, but probably the best-documented example we've had of someone persisting with very input-focused learning over several years.


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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby lingua » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:22 pm

For me it's a combination of procrastination, perfectionism and time constraints. Since I've joined this forum I've developed some wanderlust that I didn't have before.

However, as long as I enjoy it I will continue to plug away.
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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby kulaputra » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:34 pm

Monox D. I-Fly wrote:
garyb wrote:Maybe being too invested in one learning philosophy is a language learning weakness? I remember a poster on the old forum (whose name I forget) who was determined to stick to the input method: avoiding speaking German whenever possible despite living in Berlin with a German wife, and steadfastly refusing to study grammar even though he admitted his grammar was a major weak point. He was very frank about his results, and eventually admitted what most of us know: input gets you quite far but most learners need other work on top of it in order to become a competent speaker in a reasonable amount of time. He's just one data point of course, but probably the best-documented example we've had of someone persisting with very input-focused learning over several years.


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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby Dylan95 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:39 pm

Fossilized errors, especially regarding Russian intonation.
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Re: Your Language Learning Weaknesses

Postby renaissancemedici » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:47 pm

Lack of self discipline. That's why FSI works wonders for me, because I find that the drills are doing all the work for me.
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