Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2354
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14196

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:49 pm

Thanks for providing a link to this. I have no doubt that someone can reach a somewhat functional level with the 1,000 most common words, but it always boils down to how we define what "learning a language" means.

I did notice that the author of the article had some language-learning experience before tackling this:
Joshua Foer wrote:...Besides English, the only language I speak with any degree of fluency is Spanish and that came only after five years of intense classroom study and more than half a dozen trips to Latin America. ... source
2 x

Stefan
Green Belt
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: Sweden
Languages: -
x 920
Contact:

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby Stefan » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:03 pm

What if you lower the threshold from fluency to just grasping native content?

Once you're at this level, you can swap your native entertainment for content in your target language and it doesn't feel like studying. Why watch Wallander when you can watch Tatort? Instead of reading a translated version of Kafka, get the original as a parallel text. Use Weibo instead of Twitter. Do this while simultaneously spending 30 minutes a day on grammar/writing/speaking/flashcards and I'm sure it's enough to learn a language.

Maybe it's cheating, in regard to the topic?
3 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4876

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby smallwhite » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:25 pm

If this thread sprang out of Lysander's, Iguanamon's and my curiosity, I guess we three can or actually should define what we mean by "learnt successfully"? For me let's say B2 or something similar, all skills.

And I'd love to hear success stories from multilingual speakers as well. If past language success is to be considered (unfair) advantage (and disqualifies) then other non-language successes will have to be so considered as well - previous success in self-learning to program, in self-learning the guitar, a distance-learning university degree, bringing up kids... I don't see the big deal uniqueness in language-learning; it's just a school subject like any other. It is a huge leap to go from having 0 languages to having 1 language, but from 1 to 2 I don't see the big deal. L1 took learning, too.
2 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2354
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14196

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:36 pm

smallwhite wrote:If this thread sprang out of Lysander's, Iguanamon's and my curiosity, I guess we three can or actually should define what we mean by "learnt successfully"? For me let's say B2 or something similar, all skills.

I agree.
smallwhite wrote:I don't see the big deal uniqueness in language-learning; it's just a school subject like any other. It is a huge leap to go from having 0 languages to having 1 language, but from 1 to 2 I don't see the big deal. L1 took learning, too.

I have major respect for you as a learner, but on this subject, we will have to agree to disagree. ;)
3 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4876

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby smallwhite » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:49 pm

iguanamon wrote:
... on this subject, we will have to agree to disagree. ;)

I know you'd disagree. I feel that you're doing your monolingual newbies a disservice by creating and promoting a myth. Though I know you honestly believe in it.
2 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2354
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14196

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:57 pm

smallwhite wrote:...I know you'd disagree. I feel that you're doing your monolingual newbies a disservice by creating and promoting a myth. Though I know you honestly believe in it.

I don't want to derail this topic.
2 x

User avatar
Adrianslont
Blue Belt
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:39 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), Learning Indonesian and French
x 1936

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby Adrianslont » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:18 am

iguanamon wrote:
smallwhite wrote:...I know you'd disagree. I feel that you're doing your monolingual newbies a disservice by creating and promoting a myth. Though I know you honestly believe in it.

I don't want to derail this topic.

It would be a good topic, though. Has it been done before? I’m hesitant to start it myself as people sometimes jump in and list a bunch of links to where it was done before. I know I have made comments about it it somewhere - maybe not even on this forum. Smallwhite, has it been done? Want to start it?

On the topic at hand, I have spent a couple of years with French ticking over at 5 minutes a day until about ten months ago? I was focusing on Indonesian at the time. I then shifted my efforts to 1-2 hours a day of french - much of which was extensive listening and only about 30-60 minutes of intensive study per day. Unsurprisingly improvement came much quicker with more time on task. However, I can’t say the five minutes a day was wasted - I definitely learned stuff that stuck - but not a lot. I’m not sure if I would ever reach B2 that way, though - even in a thousand years.

And having tried a few things now I would do it differently - I would start by spending my 5-10 minutes on pronunciation work for the first few months - I think there would be more gain there - but this is something many experienced learners in this forum always start with.
1 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4876

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby smallwhite » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:41 am

Adrianslont wrote:
iguanamon wrote:
smallwhite wrote:...I know you'd disagree. I feel that you're doing your monolingual newbies a disservice by creating and promoting a myth. Though I know you honestly believe in it.

I don't want to derail this topic.

It would be a good topic, though. Has it been done before? I’m hesitant to start it myself as people sometimes jump in and list a bunch of links to where it was done before. I know I have made comments about it it somewhere - maybe not even on this forum. Smallwhite, has it been done? Want to start it?

A related thread: How much easier is L3 compared to L2?
0 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby reineke » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:12 am

iguanamon wrote:
smallwhite wrote:If this thread sprang out of Lysander's, Iguanamon's and my curiosity, I guess we three can or actually should define what we mean by "learnt successfully"? For me let's say B2 or something similar, all skills.

I agree.


"I would note that we found lower levels of proficiency eroded permanently and to revive language that had not been assessed at least at Level 3 usually meant that study had to begin anew."

Dialog on Language Instruction
Volume 24 (1) 2014
Reaching High Levels: ILR 3 and Above

"Lesson 4. Time on task and the intensity of the learning experience appear crucial.

Learning a language also cannot be done in a short time...FSI has tried to shorten programs, and it has not worked...

Having made this investment, it is crucial to determine what can be done to maintain the language skills that the graduates have achieved or, preferably, to improve them. Language maintenance at post may not simply be a matter of giving the speakers a set of strategies to use there, but more one of attaining a “critical mass” of language proficiency. Informally, we have observed in the languages that we have worked with that an individual departing for post following training with a borderline professional proficiency (or lower) is very likely to experience attrition. An individual with a strong professional proficiency (S-3 or S-3) will maintain or improve proficiency, and with advanced professional proficiency (S3 or S-4) will almost certainly continue to improve. "

Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching

"This work analyzed 13 years of Defense Language Institute (DLI data) from over 16,000 military linguists to determine if cognitive-based skill retention theory can adequately explain foreign language change. Relationships between independent variables suggested by skill retention theory and second language change were investigated. Language proficiency and the length of time since DLI graduation demonstrated strong correlations with foreign language change...

...there is a 25 percent probability that level 2 linguists will fall to 1+ during the first year. This probability decreases to roughly 10 percent for level 2+ linguists and 5 percent for level 3 linguists...

Near the end of the survival analysis timeline, roughly a 10-year period, the probability of an event has risen to 90 percent for level 2 linguists, 70 percent for level 2+ linguists, and 50 percent for level 3 linguists."

Modeling second language change using skill retention theory
Shearer, Samuel

ILR 3 = C1
ILR 2/2+ = B2
3 x

User avatar
Dylan95
Orange Belt
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:11 pm
Location: USA
Languages: English (N)
Currently Studying
Russian C1
Uzbek B1
Ukrainian B1~

Previously Studied and mostly forgotten
French
Italian
Latin
x 399

Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby Dylan95 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:44 pm

Hashimi wrote:To be fluent in a language, you need to study for 2 hours a day, at least, over 1-3 years.

I know a man who learnt to speak Lingala, the lingua franca of the Congo basin, and an entire dictionary of this language (not a big one, around 1000 words), in two and a half months using Memrise and spending less than 20 minutes on average daily (17.8 to be exact).


https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ree-months


I might not have understood this correctly seeing as I don't use Memrise, but does this mean that he didn't study grammar at all? I didn't see anything here that mentioned grammar or syntax, and as far as I know Memrise is more often than not used almost exclusively for vocabulary acquisition, but I could be wrong.
2 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Tutescrew and 2 guests