Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby Lysander » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:57 pm

smallwhite wrote:If this thread sprang out of Lysander's, Iguanamon's and my curiosity, I guess we three can or actually should define what we mean by "learnt successfully"? For me let's say B2 or something similar, all skills.

And I'd love to hear success stories from multilingual speakers as well. If past language success is to be considered (unfair) advantage (and disqualifies) then other non-language successes will have to be so considered as well - previous success in self-learning to program, in self-learning the guitar, a distance-learning university degree, bringing up kids... I don't see the big deal uniqueness in language-learning; it's just a school subject like any other. It is a huge leap to go from having 0 languages to having 1 language, but from 1 to 2 I don't see the big deal. L1 took learning, too.

I have never successfully learned a language, so I think a definition from you and iguanamon would be more useful. My past language "success" was passing French in undergrad, though I had no practical active skills. I'd define success as being able to get through any survival/tourist situation in addition to comfortable being able to chat with someone about myself while understanding the same from them. Also, being able to discuss the news of the day and to comfortably read the news and young adult novels. Because, to me, once you are that far, it would seem it is just a matter of time before you can read "serious" literature or discuss "heavy" philosophical or political topics if that is how one was so inclined. I am unsure where on the CEFR scale my description of success would fall, but I think around B2.

I have gotten a lot out of my time with Brazilian Portuguese so far. Though mostly along the lines of, "so this makes sense for how to learn, and if I were to start learning one from scratch, then I'd do that next time for the start". I had no practical reason to learn this language. I just wanted to give it a go for fun :) That's why I am so interested in learning from other people's experiences. Perhaps one day I actually need to learn a language due to career or life circumstances, and this experience will help me almost immeasurably.

On the topic at hand, though I could easily do an hour or more every day if I set my priorities that way, I am usually at 30 minutes or less. If I did at least one long chunk with the language of say two hours spread over a Saturday or Sunday every week I think I could still get to B2 in no more two years from now, perhaps. Once I finish Assimil, assuming it at least exposes me to all the grammar topics and such that I'd need even if not teaching them efficiently, I'd probably be able to have a better idea on the timeline.

However, the transition to leaving course-land and using "real" BP would be quite difficult if I was limited to 30 minutes a day no matter what outside of one day a week.

Though, to be honest, after sorting out a few personal obligations over this next week, I should be able to put in a lot more daily time until the end of August or so. Though I guess I could volunteer to never do more than 30 minutes a day of active study and be a guinea pig for everyone since I am learning BP as much to learn how to learn as anything else :lol:

edit: typos
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby Expugnator » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:28 pm

I'd like to clarify one point as I've been mentioned:

The reason I do short sessions and limit my total per language to 3/4 of hour at most is not pure wanderlust frenzy. I actually see diminishing returns after the first 15/20 minutes that could easily lead to a blockage had I continued. So by proceeding to another language this rotating helps my ability to focus and my overall productivity.

Even when dealing with native materials in an assisted way (parallel reading, listening/reading, double subtitles) I am committed to learning vocabulary as well, and at one point I get more words than I can learn in a day. For example, if I read 4 pages x 200 words in Greek and I can understand 90% of the words (which I can't) that's already 80 new words that day (i know, I'd have to consider repeated words). Give or take, it's more than many SRS users aim for. That's why I try to keep it at a feasible level of new content and even then I mostly skim through words I know are of rarer use until I'm comfortable enough with the most common ones to start addressing the former. So I sort of learn through native materials by means of vocabulary layers. I keep using materials at the same level and I notice that at one point I start to pay attention to words that are rather intermediate than beginner because the beginner ones have been taken care of already.

When I pick an opaque language even a short 6-line dialogue might have 20 brand new words so that's why I prefer to go slowly in the beginning. I don't want to put all my energy into that new language and harm my studies. That changes with time, as it did with Hebrew for example. People like smallwhite have proved they can learn much faster through 1-language SRS and other tools, but that's not what I'm after. I want to have an enjoyable day by doing what I am passionate about, keep my mind sharp for the rest of the day and make progress through the years.
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby smallwhite » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:41 am

Expugnator wrote:
People like smallwhite have proved they can learn much faster through 1-language SRS and other tools, but that's not what I'm after. I want to have an enjoyable day by doing what I am passionate about, keep my mind sharp for the rest of the day and make progress through the years.

I also have an enjoyable day, am doing what I am passionate about, and I think my mind is sharp for the rest of the day unless you're sayinj my forun posts show othewise.

So among the languages that you do little daily study in, are there ones you have reached B2 all skills in?
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby aokoye » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:11 am

I'm more than willing to bet that over the past 8 or 9 weeks I've spent less than 7 hours a week on Dutch. I went from A1ish to A2, according to a handful of professors at the University of Groningen. Yes German was very helpful in that respect, but given my other commitments and general stress. One or two of those weeks involved almost no studying because of school stuff and the effects of my depression.

Most of my time has been spent on vocabulary but I also went through chapters 9-18 of the textbook Nederlands in gang. I haven't spent as much time as I would like reading or writing, spent far less time than expected watching tv (I need to find a show that I like), and spent in total maybe two hours, or maybe just an hour and a half, in conversation with people.

While German has been in some ways (grammar being a big one), it's also a serious hindrance to my speaking in terms of pronunciation but more so because when I speak I end up accidentally using German words. English has also been helpful and I've had far less negative transference.

My goal is to get to B1 by the end of the Summer which is probably doable but we'll see. I have a thesis to write which is far more important.
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby Expugnator » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:09 am

smallwhite wrote:
Expugnator wrote:
People like smallwhite have proved they can learn much faster through 1-language SRS and other tools, but that's not what I'm after. I want to have an enjoyable day by doing what I am passionate about, keep my mind sharp for the rest of the day and make progress through the years.

I also have an enjoyable day, am doing what I am passionate about, and I think my mind is sharp for the rest of the day unless you're sayinj my forun posts show othewise.

So among the languages that you do little daily study in, are there ones you have reached B2 all skills in?


I'm not saying you aren't; that wasn't directed towards you.I am saying I wouldn't if I stayed longer than I do; I'd have headaches, burnout symptoms etc. Looks like you don't, so good for you.

You read my other posts on the theme so you know what I actually do. I start with very little study <15 minutes and I increase towards 30 min, 45 min at most - which is still little study at your standards (there was a recent post where I complained I felt I was doing too much Italian and Norwegian, as I was adding up 25 min extensive audiobook to 15 min l/r + 10 min series + 5 min Clozemaster which has been my daily quota for several years).

I haven't reached B2 in all skills in any of these languages apart from French and Papiamento, but I don't work on my active skills, and that will probably remain so unless an opportunity of usage comes up for a specific language, which is unlikely anyway. I can master basic socialization and tourist talk rather early and I don't feel the urge to work specifically on output after that. I think it's not the first time you've put this type of question with a rather harsh or abrupt tone, as if you were a sort of a LLORG CEFR police. I'm happy with my receptive skills in most of my languages after the time spent on each of them, with the exception of Russian, but even there I failed to see any marginal increase in progress rate when I decided to do more a day than my brain can take. Each person has their preferences and limitations.
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby smallwhite » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:29 am

Expugnator wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
Expugnator wrote:
People like smallwhite have proved they can learn much faster through 1-language SRS and other tools, but that's not what I'm after. I want to have an enjoyable day by doing what I am passionate about, keep my mind sharp for the rest of the day and make progress through the years.

I also have an enjoyable day, am doing what I am passionate about, and I think my mind is sharp for the rest of the day unless you're sayinj my forun posts show othewise.

So among the languages that you do little daily study in, are there ones you have reached B2 all skills in?


I'm not saying you aren't; that wasn't directed towards you.I am saying I wouldn't if I stayed longer than I do; I'd have headaches, burnout symptoms etc. Looks like you don't, so good for you.

You read my other posts on the theme so you know what I actually do. I start with very little study <15 minutes and I increase towards 30 min, 45 min at most - which is still little study at your standards (there was a recent post where I complained I felt I was doing too much Italian and Norwegian, as I was adding up 25 min extensive audiobook to 15 min l/r + 10 min series + 5 min Clozemaster which has been my daily quota for several years).

I haven't reached B2 in all skills in any of these languages apart from French and Papiamento, but I don't work on my active skills, and that will probably remain so unless an opportunity of usage comes up for a specific language, which is unlikely anyway. I can master basic socialization and tourist talk rather early and I don't feel the urge to work specifically on output after that. I think it's not the first time you've put this type of question with a rather harsh or abrupt tone, as if you were a sort of a LLORG CEFR police. I'm happy with my receptive skills in most of my languages after the time spent on each of them, with the exception of Russian, but even there I failed to see any marginal increase in progress rate when I decided to do more a day than my brain can take. Each person has their preferences and limitations.

I skim your posts and log so I have some idea of what you do, but just some as I don't read everything, mostly just the Mandarin and now Greek parts in your log, and I don't know how long you have been studying like this for, eg. if you learned English by spending 15 to 30 minutes a day.

For the purpose of this thread, Lysander, Iguanamon and I decided to use "B2 all skills" as what we mean by "success" when Lysander said in the OP "smallwhite, iguanamon, and I are all interested in hearing about people's experiences with successfully learning a language with minimal daily study time". So I asked the question, a simple question, in a simple way.
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby zenmonkey » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:46 am

I'll add my data point, that's easy. I have never learned a language to B2 (all skills) with just minimal daily study. In fact, my B2+ skills all resulted from moving to the country.

Having said that, my 4 daughters have learned Spanish and English to B2+ with pretty minimal daily study, language rich environments and short immersive periods (my third is in an intensive class for two weeks as I write, given the call we had last night, well worth her time).

I firmly believe, for me, that at some point, to move a language beyond some plateau, intensive periods of study are necessary.

As for the half dozen languages I have failed to learn - would intensive learning have helped? Most likely had I magically spent 4 hrs a day or more for extended period, yes, I'd have learned them. But I don't think that would ever have happened, it's more about not engaging or losing interest for other reasons. I dropped Japanese because my gf at the time didn't get a fellowship we applied for. I dropped Arabic because I hated the material at the time. I dropped Chinese because my parents moved. I dropped Czech, Icelandic, Slovak, Turkish, Hungarian because I only ever wanted to learn some travel phrases.
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby trui » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:51 am

I think that I'm probably B2 in all areas of Dutch now, but I don't have a minimal daily study success story, sorry.

When I started learning Dutch, I spent hours a day mastering the grammar. I remember asking natives questions online about grammar for hours on end, sometimes 6+ hours at a time, trying out various sentences using grammar and vocab that I was trying to learn. They were amazingly patient with me. I also used flashcards and word lists to learn the 300-500 most common words in Dutch, plus some that I just wanted to learn, to keep me motivated.

Have I been consistent with my study? Especially as of late? No, and certainly if I had consistently spent say, 2 hours a day every day instead of binge studying for several hours at a time, my Dutch would probably be a lot better than it is now after 3-4 years of learning it.

However, I will say that I do think that I made important breakthroughs in my understanding during some of those 4-6 hour sessions-- both the question and answer sessions and self study. They went hand in hand really. I still try things out with natives and get corrections to this day, though it's been a while since it's lasted several hours at one time.

I didn't take many notes though, and often took none. So perhaps if I studied for 1 hour a day and wrote down what I was learning and stuck with as I went, those multiple hour sessions would maybe be less useful for me. Though I had and still do have lots of spare time, so even if I could get away with 1 hour a day, I like binging sometimes.

On a somewhat related note, I don't use SRS but I will say that all of the vocabulary that I've really learned has been due to writing it down, using it in various sentences, and just playing with it. And also asking lots of questions about it if I'm unsure. Even for seemingly simple nouns I often ask questions. When I don't do this, I can sometimes remember it, but it's not that reliable. If I didn't do this, I think some form of spaced repetition, whether word lists or anki would be necessary for efficient study. I wonder then if my anki free study method lends itself more towards binge studying.

Now that I'm focusing on native materials and less on explicit study, I'm also finding that binge watching and binge reading is the most helpful to me. Would 30 minutes a day be enough for me? I don't know. I haven't tried it for long enough to say. Consistency is great, and I really should make sure I do some Dutch every day. If I only studied for 30-45 minutes a day, I do think that I'd better be consistent or it wouldn't work. Studying for longer periods at a time allows one to miss a day or two with less consequences I feel.
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby Xmmm » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:19 pm

I think for the average learner this could work if certain conditions were met:

1. It would need to be a Cat 1 language
2. You would have to have very high grade learning materials (Assimil, Pimsleur). Pro-quality structured progressive stuff, not random youtube videos.
3. The learner would have to have a greater than average amount of patience and self-discipline.

I kind of tried this with Indonesian. i used learningindonesian.com and was pretty happy with my progress considering how little time I was putting into it. But the grammar was dead simple. It must get more difficult to structure your time effectively when you get past A2 though.
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Re: Learning A Language With Minimal Daily Study

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:48 pm

I’ll jump in. I’ve been studying Russian for 130 days, about 10 minutes a day. Clozemaster only. I’ve reviewed 10,597 sentences and approximately the first 250 commonly used words. I’m probably not even A1, but I’ve absolutely learned something. Certain words and phrases are very familiar, and words definitely jumped out at me while I’ve watched season six of The Americans, which has a fair amount of spoken Russian. More importantly, I really enjoy it. Russian is very much a side project that I’d rather just chip away at slowly then devote any real attention to. But I’m going to keep at it, and at this rate it will only take me 7 years to finish the entire 200,000 sentences, at which point I will know a great deal of Russian. Seven years is a long time, but hey, this is a side project. French is currently my main meal.
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