What's everyone's experience with burnout?

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Xenops
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby Xenops » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:37 am

Burnout is an ever present possibility for me, unfortunately. :( I'm not sure if it's related to my depression (which I'm getting treatment for), really struggling with a difficult major back in college, or just a current difficult life situation--or maybe all three at once--but it's a common problem for me.

Another possibility is that I have too many expectations on myself--too many things I want to accomplish--and I beat myself up for not getting them done. I'm (slowly) learning how to accept myself as I am, limitations and all, and to drop things from my to-do list. For example I used to aspire to be a polyglot, but I realize to be a polyglot, you have to spend a lot of time being in a beginner stage for every language. :lol: I guess you could say I'm burned out from being a beginner? That's why at this point, I'm more likely to continue a language I already have a good base in then to start fresh with a tempting language.

I know burnout is more frequent for me if I make public goals and plans. It's as if I'm creating a homework situation where I'm forced to do something and I must do it because I said so. So I can't join challenges, because I have no competitive nature to overcome my dread of homework.
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby smallwhite » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:48 am

How is burning out even possible? Don't you guys procrastinate??
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby Iversen » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:49 pm

I don't remember having experienced anything like a burn-out. I have given up some of my hobbies for a time due to concrete factors, and I have lost interest in others, but not in a way that caused depression or extreme fatigue.

For instance I dropped language studies after my university studies because I realized that the 68 generation had occupied all the empty seats at the university and didn't intend to leave them soon, and I didn't want to become a part-time teacher. Instead I took (most of) an economical exam and an IT course and somehow ended up as an informatics consultant and programmer in public service. If somebody would have paid me a fixed salary to study languages from 1981 and onwards I would definitely have continued those studies. Now it took 25 years before the fire was rekindled by a chance encounter with HTLAL.

I stopped playing chamber music in the mid 90s because the people I played with didn't seem to be interested in trying out my works, and I stopped composing because I couldn't see who else might be interested. I took composition up again when I found a site to which I could upload my old works - and some of them needed a bout of revision or even rewriting. I still don't feel any inclination to start playing with amateur chamber musicians, but my feelings about that population segment are closer to irritation and anger than to exhaustion and depression.

And I stopped painting because I used to paint in a public 'activity house', and when I got a full-time job and scampered down there after work I more and more often couldn't find a free space to sit with my canvasses. I tried painting at home, but didn't like the turpentine stench in my apartment. So goodby hobby.

And I put Irish temporarily on the shelf because even the Irish don't speak it, I had problems predicting the pronunciation from the spelling and it would be more logical to focus on the Slavic language family, which unlike the Celtic family seems to be thriving today.
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby snowflake » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:24 pm

Given my circumstances, burn-out seems to be a constant companion. I’m learning Mandarin and participate in native speaking groups (not language learning groups). Some would consider me to be a heritage learner though my parents didn't speak Mandarin. Being ethnic Chinese, native Mandarin speakers often will place expectations on me which can weigh very heavily. Mandarin is difficult for me, add the expectations, my dislike for various aspects of Chinese culture, and any frustrations can easily be magnified. I usually have drag myself to group meetings and now am in the habit of buying a premium coffee drink on the way there as it is extremely easy to talk myself out of going. These are about the only time those coffee drinks are purchased. I accept given my goals and circumstances that at times this whole thing can be less than pleasant. And at the intermediate plateau it's very easy to slide into being content with the level we've achieved. So, I periodically thrash around and then from time to time something happens that's invigorating and fully reaffirms my decision to learn the language. Other moments which are encouraging though less so would be say when a native speaker expresses surprise at my comprehension level which they'll usually gage by my spoken response (which may be in English depending on the subject). Another encouragement is how interwoven I can be in a Mandarin speaking group despite my less than spectacular language skills. In short, it’s common for me to periodically burn-out.

To smallwhite’s comment, procrastination can contribute to burn-out since we may have time parameters associated with our goals and objectives.
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby Cavesa » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:22 pm

I find it interesting how many people around here have health problems that can easily add up with various stuff, including language learning, and result in the worse meaning of burn-out, the clinical one. I hope noone minds pointing this out, as some of us have shared a bit about the condition. Depression is a rather common example here.

That's why I find it hyperimportant and awesome this group supports the individual members in having fun. In language learning being a hobby, but still a meaningful one (because not getting any results is a part of burn out creation, not prevention of it). While we have very successful people here and people using the languages professionally, I am grateful we manage to keep it the "all language learning goals are awesome" way. And I'd like to thank everyone for participating!

Snowflake raises valid points here. The expectations of others affecting our own. It is tiring to have to always perform well or be taken for a fraud, or to disappoint someone. (I think this is even more pressing for autodidacts, despite the fact we often perform better than people in classes) I can't even imagine how hard it must be in cases like Snowflake's but I don't doubt this is not a rare situation. I've heard about similar stuff concerning latino people in the US who are expected to speak Spanish but they don't. The asian looking people may have it even worse, as people generally guess a wrong nationality and language.

Also the self-rewarding strategy is a good one. When it is hard to find intrinsic motivation, it is perfectly ok to go for extrinsic. In the case of the "it is not much fun now" kind of "burn out", it can help get through the difficult phases. In the case of the real burn out (at least the early phases, the fully showing ones should definitely be treated by a psychiatrist and/or psychotherapist), it can help survive. People are usually advised (by friends, family members, random acquitances) stuff like more activities, more social contact with people, sports and so on. That's the problem, because everything annoys you and tires you. You want to not wake up, so that you don't have to do anything ever again, not the opposite. However, buying yourself stuff (while it is a seemingly superficial kind of solution) like good coffee, nice colourful pens and pencils, good meals in a restaurant, all that can be helpful. I have experience with my brain under so much stress being much more able to appreciate such simple stuff than the complex things (like changing my whole life or doing more of the difficult things, like sports). It takes money, that is a problem. But that actually helps with not rewarding oneself without completing the task the reward is associated with. :-D
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:21 pm

One way to avoid burnout is to change activities (and maybe decrease the intensity, the planned study hours etc.). Yesterday I watched the video about Arguelles' daily workout. Inspiring as always. He has experience, alright, but I think part of the explanation why he's able to do what he does is that he also mixes the activities. Nothing for a lot more than a half hour. Typically 15-20 minutes. And he does physical exercises (running).
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby Xmmm » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:54 am

Xenops wrote:Burnout is an ever present possibility for me, unfortunately. :( I'm not sure if it's related to my depression (which I'm getting treatment for), really struggling with a difficult major back in college, or just a current difficult life situation--or maybe all three at once--but it's a common problem for me.

Another possibility is that I have too many expectations on myself--too many things I want to accomplish--and I beat myself up for not getting them done. I'm (slowly) learning how to accept myself as I am, limitations and all, and to drop things from my to-do list. For example I used to aspire to be a polyglot, but I realize to be a polyglot, you have to spend a lot of time being in a beginner stage for every language. :lol: I guess you could say I'm burned out from being a beginner? That's why at this point, I'm more likely to continue a language I already have a good base in then to start fresh with a tempting language.

I know burnout is more frequent for me if I make public goals and plans. It's as if I'm creating a homework situation where I'm forced to do something and I must do it because I said so. So I can't join challenges, because I have no competitive nature to overcome my dread of homework.


In my teens and twenties I took classes in: Spanish, French, German, Japanes, Korean, Chinese, Greek

Never got anywhere with any of them.

With the benefit of maturity I asked myself "If I could only learn one language, what would it be? (Russian). If I could learn one other language what would it be (Italian)?"

And so I've dabbled in Norwegian, German, Indonesian, Turkish ... but nothing causes me to give up on Russian or Italian and I don't even understand what burnout means in that context. I just stopped watching English TV and reading English books, and I divide my TV and book time between Russian and Italian.

"Only a fool learns by experience" -- if you can, pick one language and say "this is the language I'm going to learn if it kills me." (Think PM). And put your hand to the plow and don't look back.
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:21 pm

Xmmm wrote:
Xenops wrote:Burnout is an ever present possibility for me, unfortunately. :( I'm not sure if it's related to my depression (which I'm getting treatment for), really struggling with a difficult major back in college, or just a current difficult life situation--or maybe all three at once--but it's a common problem for me.

Another possibility is that I have too many expectations on myself--too many things I want to accomplish--and I beat myself up for not getting them done. I'm (slowly) learning how to accept myself as I am, limitations and all, and to drop things from my to-do list. For example I used to aspire to be a polyglot, but I realize to be a polyglot, you have to spend a lot of time being in a beginner stage for every language. :lol: I guess you could say I'm burned out from being a beginner? That's why at this point, I'm more likely to continue a language I already have a good base in then to start fresh with a tempting language.

I know burnout is more frequent for me if I make public goals and plans. It's as if I'm creating a homework situation where I'm forced to do something and I must do it because I said so. So I can't join challenges, because I have no competitive nature to overcome my dread of homework.


In my teens and twenties I took classes in: Spanish, French, German, Japanes, Korean, Chinese, Greek

Never got anywhere with any of them.

With the benefit of maturity I asked myself "If I could only learn one language, what would it be? (Russian). If I could learn one other language what would it be (Italian)?"

And so I've dabbled in Norwegian, German, Indonesian, Turkish ... but nothing causes me to give up on Russian or Italian and I don't even understand what burnout means in that context. I just stopped watching English TV and reading English books, and I divide my TV and book time between Russian and Italian.

"Only a fool learns by experience" -- if you can, pick one language and say "this is the language I'm going to learn if it kills me." (Think PM). And put your hand to the plow and don't look back.


I prefer to ask the other way around: "If I was forbidden to learn languages X,Y, and Z, which one would I regret the most?" That is the one to learn.

And to the bolded part: that is definitely possible. I think this is one of the reasons why so many people fail learning a language, both autodidacts (which can blame only ourselves) and people in classes (where the curriculum or teacher is the main culprit of choosing and keeping the snail pace. I remember that from my own childhood and teenage, and I see it on my siblings now, just as I've seen it on others. Both kids and adults People want to see results of their work. The "it must be fun and never feel like work" attitude many teachers/courses/schools adopt now is a part of the problem. People give up because they've been putting in time regularly for two years and still suck, when they want to use the language during their holiday or elsewhere. That's what the smiling faces having fun on the advertisement posters don't tell you.
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby garyb » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:08 am

I'm sure there have been a few other discussions on burnout in recent weeks, but I can't find them now so I'll just write a similar reply to last time; apologies for any déjà vu.

I had burnout a few times in the past and it was because I was putting too much pressure on myself, especially for speaking. I believed the bloggers who said the way forward was to speak as much as possible, so I stressed myself out by pursuing language exchanges, socialising with TL speakers even if we didn't necessarily get on well as people, and going to meetups where there would usually be one or few native speakers and a plethora of learners vying for their attention. Most of this unsurprisingly didn't go well, but I believed that I just needed to do more of it and everything would work out. It sucked away my time and energy, messing up the balance in the rest of my life: not enough time for other hobbies, staying out late with these people and not sleeping enough, not enough downtime or time with my real friends. Moreover, I had other problems at the time including depression, so I was prone to burnout to begin with.

These days I focus less on speaking and my language learning is slower, but it's also more relaxed and isn't messing with the rest of my life.
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Re: What's everyone's experience with burnout?

Postby snowflake » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:23 pm

Cavesa wrote:Also the self-rewarding strategy is a good one. When it is hard to find intrinsic motivation, it is perfectly ok to go for extrinsic. In the case of the "it is not much fun now" kind of "burn out", it can help get through the difficult phases. In the case of the real burn out (at least the early phases, the fully showing ones should definitely be treated by a psychiatrist and/or psychotherapist), it can help survive. People are usually advised (by friends, family members, random acquitances) stuff like more activities, more social contact with people, sports and so on. That's the problem, because everything annoys you and tires you. You want to not wake up, so that you don't have to do anything ever again, not the opposite. However, buying yourself stuff (while it is a seemingly superficial kind of solution) like good coffee, nice colourful pens and pencils, good meals in a restaurant, all that can be helpful. I have experience with my brain under so much stress being much more able to appreciate such simple stuff than the complex things (like changing my whole life or doing more of the difficult things, like sports). It takes money, that is a problem. But that actually helps with not rewarding oneself without completing the task the reward is associated with. :-D


The premium coffee here was not meant as a reward....was trying to apply Pavlovian conditioning as I wanted to change my attitude about going. It helped as I'm significantly less draggy about going.
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