Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
zKing
Orange Belt
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 11:59 pm
Location: Seattle Area
Languages: English(N), Learning: Cantonese, Italian
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7973
x 729

Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby zKing » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 pm

As I march through swamp of the Lower Intermediate Plateau with Cantonese, I was pondering the simple, but frustrating process:

  1. I listen to some new bit of content and understand some small percentage, i.e. I get the general topics but only truly catch 25% of the words on first listen.
  2. I listen to it carefully several more times and catch more words each time, the percentage of understanding peaks at 30-50%
  3. I then read the text which I usually understand 80-95% on first read, I look up all unknown vocab and grammar.
  4. I short loop each sentence and hammer them into my brain until they are "clear" as they hit my ears.
  5. I can then listen through in one pass and understand 99%. (Of course, if I don't listen to this exact bit of content for a few weeks that understanding drops to 80%.)
  6. I then find a new bit of material and only understand the general topics and 25.01% of the words... (GOTO step 1)
Cantonese (from an English L1) is especially slow because:
  • Lack of cognates
  • Diglossia with the written language means there is very little audio w/accurate text available.
Someday, based on the advice around here, I'm told that first 25% becomes 99%.
I really hope that's true... I'm trusting you guys on this one. :lol:

I'd love to hear other people's tales of the doldrums of the lower intermediate listening plateau.
I think I'm just posting this for sympathy. :D
6 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4876

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby smallwhite » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:05 pm

> Diglossia with the written language means there is very little audio w/accurate text available.

I'm just guessing here. You may have to learn to read Written Chinese sooner or later anyway so learn it now so you can use transcript that's in it?


> 25%... 99%...

That does not sound like a plateau to me at all.


How long are your audio clips, just the Cantonese parts, excluding music and the English parts?
1 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

User avatar
zKing
Orange Belt
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 11:59 pm
Location: Seattle Area
Languages: English(N), Learning: Cantonese, Italian
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7973
x 729

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby zKing » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:11 pm

smallwhite wrote:> Diglossia with the written language means there is very little audio w/accurate text available.
I'm just guessing here. You may have to learn to read Written Chinese sooner or later anyway so learn it now so you can use transcript that's in it?

My reading of SWC is OK. So I do use that to help me understand what is being said when I have no other source. But often the nuances of what is being said, particularly for the for more interesting Cantonese specific bits, aren't translated very well into SWC subtitles. Hence why I say "accurate text" above. When I'm trying to figure out what is REALLY being said word for word and there's a slur of 4-5 slangy syllables together, the often over simplified SWC subtitles may not help (at my level).

But honestly, that is just me being cranky. In those cases, I just skip that sentence and move on to something I can make out or have good enough text to figure out.

smallwhite wrote:> 25%... 99%...
That does not sound like a plateau to me at all.
How long are your audio clips, just the Cantonese parts, excluding music and the English parts?

The plateau is the part where each piece of new content seems to start at 25%-ish, the gain in skill is barely perceptible as a whole.
And yes, I get to 99% understanding of that one bit of content, but it feels like each new unfamiliar bit of content is still just over the horizon of understanding (and it is has felt that way for a hell of a long time.)

Most of my material has between 2 and 5 minute chapters. Right now I have roughly 4 hours of "intermediate" audio (trimmed of all music/english/vocabulary lists) from learning sources... which is pretty much most of what exists for Cantonese learning materials.

For variety I also struggle my way through YouTube vidoes with subtitles, RTHK podcasts (which have no corresponding text), and things like 鏗鏘集 which have SWC subs. This of course is a bit harder, but I like the variety.

I also started doing iTalki sessions, which is helping my conversations skills.

Honestly, I'm not really asking "what am I doing wrong, please help"... I realize the only honest answer to that is "keep going". I know that in language learning, time on task/raw volume of (mostly) comprehensible content is really the one and only "trick". My post was just a bit of venting and I was hoping to hear stories from other folks who have been in my shoes, that's all. :D
4 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4876

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby smallwhite » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:24 pm

> Honestly, I'm not really asking "what am I doing wrong, please help"...

I'm sorry I had not noticed that. Please continue.
0 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

kulaputra
Orange Belt
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:04 am
Languages: English (N), Kannada (semi-native, illiterate), Spanish (~C1), Hindi (A2 speech, B1 comprehension), French (A1 speech, A2 listening, >=B1 reading), Mandarin Chinese (~A1)
x 331

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby kulaputra » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:11 am

Intensive listening is good but exhausting. Have you tried extensive listening? Literally listen to Cantonese every single moment you can. 12+ hours a day at least.
0 x
Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

NoManches
Blue Belt
Posts: 654
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:21 pm
Location: Estados Unidos (near the Mexican border)
Languages: English - (N)
Spanish - B2 +
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7942
x 1459

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby NoManches » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:17 pm

I think you have a good strategy, it is definitely something that worked for me when I was at a lower intermediate level.

One thing I would recommend is finding some easier material to work with as well. I'm talking about some i+1(do some searches on Krashen and comprehensible input).

When I was using something similar to the technique you described, I realized that I still had some trouble with my listening. Even though I was "cheating and consolidating" (that is another search you should do) my brain was still taking time to process everything. I wasn't just hearing and comprehending like I would in my native language. There was still a little delay because my intermediate level brain was trying to make sense of all the advanced material I was feeding it (this was true even after repeated listens and learning all vocab/grammar associated with the audio). With I+1, you will give yourself some much needed time listening to easy material where your brain can just listen and make sense of everything without having to go onto overdrive.

I think your brain can benefit greatly from extensive listening, where you listening to very comprehensible material. After a while your brain is able to make sense of everything at lighting fast speed. No thinking required.
Last edited by NoManches on Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
4 x
DOUBLE Super Challenge
Spanish Movies
: 10795 / 18000

Spanish Books
: 4415 / 10000

User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Advanced-B2)
x 963
Contact:

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby Jaleel10 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:49 pm

kulaputra wrote:Intensive listening is good but exhausting. Have you tried extensive listening? Literally listen to Cantonese every single moment you can. 12+ hours a day at least.


Does that help even if you don't understand everything ?
0 x

NoManches
Blue Belt
Posts: 654
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:21 pm
Location: Estados Unidos (near the Mexican border)
Languages: English - (N)
Spanish - B2 +
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7942
x 1459

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby NoManches » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:23 pm

Jaleel10 wrote:
kulaputra wrote:Intensive listening is good but exhausting. Have you tried extensive listening? Literally listen to Cantonese every single moment you can. 12+ hours a day at least.


Does that help even if you don't understand everything ?


I think there is some confusion on intensive/extensive reading and listening. If I remember correctly, we had a thread about this topic some time back.

Extensive listening (or reading) is working with material that is very comprehensible to you.

If I listen to a podcast and work with it the way the OP described: intensive


If I sit back and listen to a really easy audiobook and understand 95% of it: extensive

I would say that listening to stuff you don't understand might get your brain used to hearing the language but it will not be very efficient and will be a pretty if waste of time in my opinion.
2 x
DOUBLE Super Challenge
Spanish Movies
: 10795 / 18000

Spanish Books
: 4415 / 10000

kulaputra
Orange Belt
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:04 am
Languages: English (N), Kannada (semi-native, illiterate), Spanish (~C1), Hindi (A2 speech, B1 comprehension), French (A1 speech, A2 listening, >=B1 reading), Mandarin Chinese (~A1)
x 331

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby kulaputra » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:09 pm

I disagree. Extensive listening with <95% comprehension is great. Waiting until 95% listening comprehension defeats the purpose. You don't listen after you get good at listening, you listen in order to get good at listening.

Dr Sulzberger's research challenges existing language learning theory. His main hypothesis is that simply listening to a new language sets up the structures in the brain required to learn the words.

"Neural tissue required to learn and understand a new language will develop automatically from simple exposure to the language—which is how babies learn their first language," Dr Sulzberger says...

"When we are trying to learn new foreign words we are faced with sounds for which we may have absolutely no neural representation. A student trying to learn a foreign language may have few pre-existing neural structures to build on in order to remember the words."


https://www.sciencealert.com/saturation ... e-learners
4 x
Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

NoManches
Blue Belt
Posts: 654
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:21 pm
Location: Estados Unidos (near the Mexican border)
Languages: English - (N)
Spanish - B2 +
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7942
x 1459

Re: Listening: The (Lower) Intermediate Plateau

Postby NoManches » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:36 pm

kulaputra wrote:I disagree. Extensive listening with <95% comprehension is great. Waiting until 95% listening comprehension defeats the purpose. You don't listen after you get good at listening, you listen in order to get good at listening.

Dr Sulzberger's research challenges existing language learning theory. His main hypothesis is that simply listening to a new language sets up the structures in the brain required to learn the words.

"Neural tissue required to learn and understand a new language will develop automatically from simple exposure to the language—which is how babies learn their first language," Dr Sulzberger says...

"When we are trying to learn new foreign words we are faced with sounds for which we may have absolutely no neural representation. A student trying to learn a foreign language may have few pre-existing neural structures to build on in order to remember the words."


https://www.sciencealert.com/saturation ... e-learners



I'd be lying if I said I only listen to 95% comprehensible input. I have spent many, many, hours listening to barely comprehensible material simply because I couldn't find anything that was easier for me given my level at the time. Personally, when I listen to really hard stuff (not so comprehensible) I zone in and out and and can't stay focused. At least with the comprehensible material I stay focused and spend more time listening to stuff that makes sense (being efficient) and less time listening to incomprehensible material.

So I'll have to agree with you to a degree (after all, I'm sure the hundreds of hours I've spent listening to really hard, <95% comprehensible input has helped me get to where I am now).

I think the part I agree with you on is that it doesn't have to be 95%...you can benefit greatly from material that is 80% comprehensible (and less) for example. I think the problem is when people think they can learn a language by jumping right info French radio shows for example thinking that they will somehow eventually learn French from doing so.


Also, one of the points I was trying to make is that the definition of "extensive" material is often confused. (Where is Reineke to share the links to these prior discussions that I somehow can't find right now :D )

Now that I think about it,the discussion I am referring to may have had to do with a difference between "binge reading" and "extensive reading":

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... ilit=Binge


Just want to make sure we are on the same page. I guess the question is: what level of comprehension do you need with a particular piece of audio for your listening to be "extensive" rather than "binge" listening to material that is not so comprehensible.
Last edited by NoManches on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
3 x
DOUBLE Super Challenge
Spanish Movies
: 10795 / 18000

Spanish Books
: 4415 / 10000


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: philomath and 2 guests