Family language learning in a monolingual household

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melior
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Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby melior » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:31 pm

Hello! Bear with me, this background is relevant to my question:

I'm in my 30's, married, have children, live in the U.S., and I believe my motivation to learn another language, after many false starts over the years, is finally here to stay. I've progressed furthest with Esperanto, which I started about three months ago, but needless to say I am not fluent. Next would be Spanish, which is mostly what I've retained from five years of it in grades 8-12 (I am kicking myself for not applying myself to it back then), and then Mandarin, which I started about a month ago. I've also dabbled in a ton of other languages: French, German, Japanese, Korean, and a few others that are on my wishlist.

Now that I caught the language learning bug, I have wanted to get my family involved. It took just a teensy bit of cajoling, but shortly after I started with Esperanto, I got my wife, ten-year-old son, and seven-year-old daughter to join me on Duolingo.

They lasted about a week.

Their main problem, I figured, was the same as mine all those times: motivation. Esperanto for me is a stepping stone; I want to know what it feels like to think in another language, and Esperanto is, by most accounts, essentially a shortcut to that path. I'm totally sold on its merits as a second language, largely because I have started and given up on learning another language so many times. My family does not share this experience or motivation. They are where I was: they want to learn a language that will be useful for one reason or another. So at the moment I am encouraging that as well, which has caused another problem: the languages they want to learn are all different!

My wife and I are planning a vacation to Paris, so my wife wants to learn French. My son and I were Googling the best paleontology schools in the world, and one of the schools consistently ranked among the best is in Germany, so my son wants to learn German. My daughter has an acquaintance at school who can speak Spanish, so she wants to learn Spanish.

It's been a couple weeks since this split started, and it's not going great. I know actually using the language is essential, so my original plan was to follow along with them in all three languages on Duolingo and speak with them in that language to get them thinking about it outside the app, all while keeping up with my own Esperanto and Mandarin learning. This is not even easily said, let alone easily done. They've now lasted longer than they did with Esperanto and continue to hit their daily Duolingo goals at my urging, but I don't think they'd care if they didn't.

So, my question: what do you think I should do?

1. Try again to get everyone to agree on a language? I still feel that Esperanto is the best choice, both because of its propaedeutic value and because they all know a smattering of it from both Duolingo and me mixing in a few words and phrases here and there. Another decent option would be Spanish; my wife also took a few years of it in high school and is at a similar stage as I am. I don't think adding that would be too much of a hardship for me (and I want to be conversational in it at some point anyway).

2. Continue going our separate language learning ways? Perhaps I could do a better job encouraging them, maybe checking out audio courses from the library for them? I don't think following along is sustainable for me, especially as the lessons are getting more complex.

3. Give up on motivating them for now, focus on my own language learning, and return to encouraging them once I am more advanced (and thus can teach better)? I believe it would benefit my children enormously so I don't want to give up entirely, but I also don't want them to hate doing it or get burned out.

All advice and comments even outside my question parameters is welcome. Thank you for reading all the way through my rambling!
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby rdearman » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:46 pm

I think language learning requires a lot of time and enthusiasm. So you're not going to have that with an agreed upon family language unless it happens to be the one you wanted. But everyone else will lose interest because it isn't the one they want.

I think it would be better for all of you to do your own thing, but sit down and talk together about what is working or is not working. This would allow you all to encourage and support each other while still going after the language which motivates you as an individual. You share tips and tricks but still progress individually.
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby zKing » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:11 pm

The absolute number one way to NOT learn a language is to quit. I consider motivation to be the crown jewels of language learning. Guard your motivation like Gollum with his precious. Most people fail to learn a language simply because they started with not enough motivation (along with unrealistic expectations) and grind it away quickly doing unfun things, i.e. what they think they 'should' do... and then they quit.

So I'd consider it a very bad idea for someone to attempt to learn a language they just aren't that excited about... particularly if there is another one they ARE really excited about. Remember, we are talking about hundreds of hours (if not thousands).

So I'd say it is best to let each person pick their poison. To keep people going, maybe have some family nights where you rotate through target language movies (with English subs for the rest of the family not learning that language). I think it is really important to regularly have enjoyable contact with the culture and real language to keep your spirits up (such as movies and TV shows). If your only contact with the language is beginner text books and dictionaries (and even Duolingo) for weeks on end, it can really grind on your emotional reaction to the language. You don't want your brain to constantly go "French... oh yuck, here comes another pile of homework."

Just my $0.02.
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby smallwhite » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:56 am

I can't say what you should do because it's your family and your family values. I might make my children do what I believe is good, but I used to dislike it when my parents made me do what they believed was good.

I'd just like to mention that if it's Esperanto, Spanish or French that your family is learning, which don't take very long to learn especially for your children, then it's possible that:

1. you start together now and 4 weeks later while you're still struggling with days of the month, your children are already chatting away with each other in the language.
* so there won't really be much studying together as a group. Chances are they'll be tutoring you rather than studying with you.

2. 8 weeks later you've gotten the present tense of Esperanto down while your son has finished his Esperanto course and is getting the present tense of German down.
* so you end up studying different languages anyway.

etc.
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby galaxyrocker » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:54 am

To be quite honest, I think your current plan of action is the easiest way to make it so none of you learn a language. It seems to me that, outside of you, none of your family really want to learn a language, and only do Duolingo because you're urging them to. This is the easiest way to lead to make them all hate language learning and, as it seems that some of your love of language learning comes from wanting to do it as a family, it'll hurt you when they don't want to learn. As smallwhite said, kids can really dislike doing things parents think are good, especially if they perceive it as work (on top of schoolwork even!).

My advice would be to follow option 3, but also to change it. Don't make them feel like they're being forced to learn a language. Encourage them to explore languages, sure, but don't bring it up all the time. Make it easy for them to learn by letting them know you'll support them regardless of which language interests them and that they can count on you to stand by them when they do start to learn. But definitely don't try to force them into learning a specific language.

You should learn Esperanto because it's something you enjoy doing, and let your kids and wife do stuff they enjoy. If they wish to use their time to learn a language, great! Definitely promote it (but don't harp on it) and encourage their progress regardless of what language it is, but don't force it on them.

Also, given that you're just now learning your first language, my advice would be to focus on one at a time. I'd suggest dropping Mandarin and Spanish until your Esperanto is a good level and then pick one of them back up when you can just maintain Esperanto instead of actively needing to learn it. Also, expect the propaedeutic value of Esperanto to be vastly overstated.
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby Ani » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:25 am

+1 on galaxyrocker's post -- all parts of it.

You really can't learn your first three languages all at the same time. You definitely can't learn 5 or 6 at once.
I find Duolingo to be utter torture so I would not be pushing my kids on that, hoping it would make them love languages. I think rdearman's suggestions are very practical.

My youngest two children will speak French because I started speaking to them early enough and I will do their early academics in French, before they are old enough to even realize they have a choice. My older kids though missed the French train and so I respect their wishes in language learning. My oldest decided he'd learn Greek. I tried to keep up for a while but it really isn't my great interest. He's doing great though. We recently started Middle Egyptian together. I consider him a success, even if he's not fluent in a language yet, because he likes languages, understands the commitment, and has confidence in himself to meet his goals.

My second wants to learn all the languages and therefore has learned none :) I'm going to push her a little harder on Latin this year unless she really comes up with a passion for another language.

My kids see me studying languages all the time so they know it is both possible AND requires consistency. They also know that if you are learning a language, you get extra TV time for TL cartoons...
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby Adrianslont » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:23 am

Lead by example - enjoy and be consistent in your language learning hobby. Let them choose their own hobbies but be encouraging.

Being in the USA I guess your kids will get exposed to Spanish at school at some time? And other languages? At that point I would give them gentle guidance and help them find cool tv in Spanish that you think they would enjoy, point out that they can set computer games to Spanish etc.

I like Ani’s idea of extra tv as long as it is in another language. There is another member of this forum who once mentioned great success with his kids doing this - but I can’t remember who exactly.

My own track record is one child who has studied a language at university with some success but is currently too busy with other university study to do a lot of language learning - she does however see that it is possible to do, can get around a country using it successfully and has developed an interest in languages. She wants to continue to learn and use her language skills in future work. She has since picked up the basics of another language, through a part time class and spending extended time in country.

Her sister has had almost zero interest in language learning until recently. A recent trip on her own seems to have sparked a small interest - we will see. She is however so busy doing study and lots of other great stuff with her life that it is all cool with me.
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby IronMike » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:33 pm

+1 on everyone's recommendations.

Our family has mixed reviews on language. First kid first year of life, I only spoke Esperanto to him when it was just he and I while mommy slept off her mids shift. He and his brother studied German through Runescape and Rosetta Stone (ages 10 and 8) for a year and got pretty good. Then boy #1 took Russian for two years (9th and 10th grade) then Spanish his 11th grade year. Then two years of working at a MacDonalds with majority Spanish-speaking clientele and employees. Fast forward four years and he's now in the Coast Guard with a 1+ to 2 level in Spanish for listening and reading, without any formal class from the service.

Boy #2's German history I recounted above. He took Russian for three years (7th-9th grades), then nothing specific language-wise for two years then Russian again his senior year. Fast forward 18 months when he decided to change his college major (after only one semester of school) to Russian. He had to interview with the Dean of the department who told him she could put him immediately into third year Russian.

Girl #1 loves languages and has the desire to learn them, but they're hard for her. She studied Russian 4th-6th then again 9th-10th grade formally in school, then informally with mom her final two (home)school years. She and I also did an Esperanto class a couple years ago.

Girl #2: Since kids 1-3 were all late talkers, with this one we decided to start early on with sign language. We started her on Signing Time at just 3 months old (or so). She loved the series, as did her (3 years older) sister. They both watch and use the signs. Fast forward to 9 months old and she is signing to me something that she wants. I understand "I want to eat..." but not the final sign. So I have to call her sister in to translate. 'She wants a pear,' says her sister. 'Oh, sweety, I'm so sorry. We don't have any pears.' More crying from daughter #2. 'Yes we do daddy,' says her big sister. 'Mom bought some yesterday.' Well, I'll be! Fast forward some more years and: Russian in 1st-3rd grades then again 6th-9th. Her listening and reading are incredible, her speaking less so but mostly due to her being such an introvert. She has no issues watching Russian (kids) television.

All along, the wife and I hardly/barely ever speak/spoke Russian at home. We made a decision early on, as neither of us were fluent nor had the time to get fluent, to not speak to the kids in Russian as we didn't want to pass on improper/ungrammatical/crap Russian. I considered it with Esperanto, but at the time I was working in a job which required me to maintain my Russian, so I didn't have the time to put toward getting my Esperanto up to "native" status.

Why am I saying all this? To give you an alternative view to "family language learning" and OPOL and all the other options out there. I feel for/with you, I really do. I still have dreams of taking care of a grandchild full-time and doing OGpOL (haha) in Esperanto (its much better now than it was when my kids were little).

Let the family get into it naturally. You may be amazed at what they come up with! Good luck!
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:41 pm

I’d pick Spanish. So much access to kid friendly content. My library has tons of Spanish books and DVDs. I’d mostly go immersion, but things that are familiar and/or below age level. Make them watch Blues Clues and other toddler TV, because they will be able to follow along. Read Dr. Seuss. Make it a little silly and fun.
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Re: Family language learning in a monolingual household

Postby Ani » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:31 am

Lawyer&Mom wrote: Make them watch Blues Clues and other toddler TV, because they will be able to follow along.


Now I guess some kids can pick up another language just through toddler TV, but mine sure haven't. Daily French cartoons for years have done nothing for my oldest three.
I consider TV more like reinforcement. Sure they'll pick up some things, and the listening skills are invaluable, but I wouldn't consider just TV to be immersion study.
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