Intermediate Learning

General discussion about learning languages

kulaputra
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Re: Intermediate Learning

Postby kulaputra » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:26 pm

I personally feel the intermediate level is best overcome by massive input á la AJATT
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Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

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reineke
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Re: Intermediate Learning

Postby reineke » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:54 pm

Test your skills

Dialang http://dialangweb.lancaster.ac.uk/

Vocabulary - multilingual

"Test your receptive and productive vocabulary in different languages. What percentage of the 5000 most frequent words have you mastered?
http://www.itt-leipzig.de/static/startseiteeng.html

Italian Vocabulary
Quante parole italiane conosci? Con questo test puoi ottenere una stima valida della dimensione del tuo vocabolario in soli 4 minuti e in questo modo aiuterai anche la ricerca scientifica.
http://vocabolario.ugent.be
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rdearman
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Re: Intermediate Learning

Postby rdearman » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:56 pm

reineke wrote:Test your skills

Dialang http://dialangweb.lancaster.ac.uk/

How would taking this test get anyone past the intermediate stage?
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Dylan95
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Re: Intermediate Learning

Postby Dylan95 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:42 pm

rdearman wrote:
reineke wrote:Test your skills

Dialang http://dialangweb.lancaster.ac.uk/

How would taking this test get anyone past the intermediate stage?


Personally, I think tests help because they highlight what needs to be improved. It's pretty difficult to improve when you don't even know where the problems are. Of course, this probably speaks more to higher-intermediate and advanced levels, since at the lower levels it doesn't take too much to figure out where the problems are.
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reineke
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Re: Intermediate Learning

Postby reineke » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:44 pm

rdearman wrote:
reineke wrote:Test your skills.

Dialang http://dialangweb.lancaster.ac.uk/
...
"Test your receptive and productive vocabulary in different languages. What percentage of the 5000 most frequent words have you mastered?
http://www.itt-leipzig.de/static/startseiteeng.html

How would taking this test get anyone past the intermediate stage?


Test-Taking Cements Knowledge Better Than Studying, Researchers Say
The New York Times › science
"Test-taking actually helps people learn, and it works better than repeated studying, according to new research..."

There's also Quizlet and tons of other stuff...

More importantly you'll have a better idea about your level of skill and where you need more training.

How long does it take to learn a language? Insights from research on language learning."

"Language learning is non-linear, i.e. dynamic, not uniform or entirely predictable (Larsen-Freeman, 1997). A U-shaped learning curve, where performance initially improves, then deteriorates, and eventually recovers is documented in both first language research (Lightbown, 1983) and second language research (Bowerman, 1982). The U-shaped curve is observed in cases where practice does not lead to improvement in performance as the result of restructuring processes (McLaughlin, 1990). The learning journey of each individual is unique, because learning does not proceed at a regular and continuous pace but rather goes through peaks and valleys, improvement and backsliding. According to the typical learning curve, peaks generally come at the start and at the end of the learning process, whereas, in between, learners tend to “get stuck” in what is referred to as a “learning plateau” (Gass and Selinker, 2001). This means that although score gains are expected as a result of learning over time, some learners may experience static phases or even temporary regression due to a number of factors, such as lack of exposure, loss of motivation, etc."

"An important difference is made between slow learners and fast learners. Fast learners learn in an ideal scenario. They take benefit from a number of individual or context-related traits, for example they are highly motivated and their first language is not too distant from English.

Pearson’s estimate of number of hours per increasing proficiency. Note that these are active learning hours, i.e., time explicitly devoted to learning the language, through instruction and exercises.

Total cumulative number of hours

A1 95 - 480
A2 190 - 770
B1 380 - 1386
B2 760 - 2495
C1 1520 - 4490

Actual hours will depend on individual factors such as L1, motivation, intensity of study, etc."

How long does it take to learn a language? Insights from research on language learning.

Time to study to reach a next level
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=2280

When can you say you have reached Intermediate level?
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=1990

What's your biggest language learning problem?

rdearman wrote:My problem is also Reineke. (and all you other people on this forum who keep me reading this in English instead of cracking a grammar book) :lol:


https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=2647
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smallwhite
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Re: Intermediate Learning

Postby smallwhite » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:18 am

You ask about "reducing the time spent in the intermediate doldrums" but the links I clicked on talk about overcoming the intermediate plateau. I will talk about the latter.

If you (general you) don't want an intermediate plateau then don't measure things in a way that will produce one. I split my learning into equal stages by time. If I expect to learn a language from scratch to C1 in 12 months, then Stage 1 is 3 months, Stage 2 is 3 months, Stage 3 is 3 months and Stage 4 is 3 months. No stage is longer than any other and wow, no stage takes longer than any other. And if I expect to learn 12000 words in 12 months, then each month I learn 1000 words and each day 33. In no stage do I learn more slowly than in any other stage.

If you already know that A1+A2 is a 200-hourish stage and the B's an 800-hourish stage (say), and you don't want to have (feel) an intermediate plateau, then why still measure your progress with A's and B's? And if you just have to measure it that way, then what's so surprising about the B's stage turning out to take longer than the A's stage?

But if one somehow must divide their learning path into a short beginner stage and a long intermediate stage and then feel bad about it, then some ideas would be
- to study less efficiently during the beginner stage than the next stage
- to study things more thoroughly during the beginner stage and less the next stage
- to learn intermediate and advanced vocab during the beginner stage
- to hop between more resources during the beginner stage
- to look for, acquire and prepare resources early on and count that time towards the beginner stage

Another thing is, did you really finish the beginner stage before you embarked on the intermediate stage? Or did you procrastinate the output bit, such that the 2 stages are really:
Stage 1: beginner input
Stage 2: intermediate input, beginner output, intermediate output
and of course uneven?
Last edited by smallwhite on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dialang or it didn't happen.

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Re: Intermediate Learning

Postby Cavesa » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:58 am

I think the attempts to "reduce the time" are one of the things actually making intermediate learning much less efficient and longer. Stuff that is supposed to happen in the brain in a hundred hours is not gonna happen in twenty. And I think most good efficiency tricks (like SRS) are usually found long before reaching the gates of the intermediateland.

Most people are doing more or less the right things, they are just doing too little of them. Noticeable progress is simply bound to take longer now. So, one of the obvious ways to reduce the time needed is to put more time into the language. That way, you can choose whether to make the particular chunk of progress in a month or in a year, depending on how many hours per day or week you invest.

From my experience and observation, there seem to be two kinds of main problems in the intermediate phase:

1.refusing to finally use lots of native input. These people stick to courses and never get out of their comfort zone. They give up on a movie after five minutes "because it is a waste of time without understanding", on a book too or they try to profit from reading two pages a day (without looking up stuff, so they don't get either the advantages of intensive reading or extensive). Sure, some of those people are even able to pass the B2 or C1 exams just with paying lots to teachers for years, but they are usually scared of listening, of speaking, and hopeless in the real life.

2.refusing to study further the "boring stuff". Sure, there are some experienced learners not needing courses and grammar books and such stuff, I get that. But vast majority of people would do well to buy that B1 or B2 book and study, instead of fossilising mistakes because they've "learnt the grammar already and SRSed the 2000 most frequent words so now they just need to speak and speak". These people can even get "fluent", in the sense of talking fast and without gaps. But they rarely get to the real advanced levels, they rarely improve to speak really well, with precision, nuance, and freedom. There are millions of ESL examples (and not only them)
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