Is it possible to get good output skills without output practice by input alone?

[Lawyer&Mom]

I imagine I could have great French output with a solid decade of massive French input. But there would be gaps. I don’t think I’d know many noun genders. My grown-up brain is just too good at ignoring what I don’t need for comprehension. And my pronunciation? Without practice? It would be fine, but not great.

[nooj]

That was his first language, English. L1 acquisition, in my opinion, is qualitatively different from L2 acquisition. In any case, the same is true for quantitatively. The amount of input you receive as an L1 speaker before the age of 5 is massive, and the guy from your story had 30 years of it. Good luck trying to get that amount of input for L2!

I've never, ever heard of anyone who ever got good at output in L2 just by input. In any case, it would be deathly boring, especially if you live in a country where that L2 is spoken. What, you're going to be there for a year before you decide to open your mouth or put pen to paper? No thanks, I prefer to speak or write badly than to not speak or write at all.

[Uncle Roger]

Not sure about that but I'd say that to live functionally in a foreign country, what you can process inwards is much more important than what you can output.
So, if I extend this axiom, I would say that you can probably get good enough output skills by working massively on input skills.

[白田龍]

Once you achieve a very high passive level, you will start thinking in the language. One would probably also want to talk to himself and reading out loud. Your output will be terrible at first, but improvements will be fast.

How much input and time one needs is anyone's guess. My goal is to do an average one hour of reading and one hour of listening per day. I'd say it should take at least 1-2 years after I'm able to read books without much trouble. Anything I have done before this level is not relevant.

[Speakeasy]

Several years ago, an acquaintance of mine maintained that he had learned Karate to a very high level by simply thinking about it (input alone), he firmly believed that he could defeat anyone in a match even though he admitted that he had never either thrown or blocked a punch or a kick. I suggested to him that, while he might have absorbed a great deal of theoretical knowledge, his lack of actual practice meant that his mind, his nervous system, and his muscles would not have developed the speed, timing, and coordination which only years of physical practice can yield and which are essential to a high level of performance. I offered that, if his assertion were true, then his “input alone” theory would apply to an endless list of combined muscular-intellectual activities such as gymnastics, free-style skiing, playing a musical instrument, and the like. As he was adamant about the level of skill that he had achieved, I suggested that he put it to the test, right then and there. Now then, at the time, I had already earned a black belt in judo, I had practiced wrestling and boxing for several years, and I had been mostly recently practicing jiu-jitsu with a special emphasis on quick “dirty” street-fighting techniques drawn from krav maga and elsewhere. I apprised him of my training and said: “okay, come at me”, which he did. Our bout lasted, literally, about two seconds. We repeated the exercise a couple of times with the same results.

Having provided a practical demonstration of my thoughts on his theory, I suggested that a high level of skill in primarily intellectual activities, such as solving mathematical problems, might be possible through input only. I recall suggesting that intellectual activities requiring the quick interaction with others, such as playing chess and learning a foreign language might present special cases. That is, in the case of chess, I wondered whether or not reading through massive amounts of the great chess matches of history would actually develop the mind’s ability to interact with another player at a high level; it might, I simply don’t know. In the case of learning a language, I was of the opinion that, through “input alone” one could definitely learn to read and write at a high level, but that the lack of “output” (speaking and, more specifically, the interplay of conversation) would likely leave the speaker with (a) poor pronunciation skills as the tongue, cheek, and jaw muscles would be insufficiently developed in the absence of actual practice, (b) slow response time in conversations, and (c) even greater difficulties when speaking in groups where multiple conversations often occur more-or-less simultaneously. On this point, my views have not changed.

EDITED:
Tinkering.

[Xmmm]

Several years ago, an acquaintance of mine maintained that he had learned Karate to a very high level by simply thinking about it (input alone), he firmly believed that he could defeat anyone in a match even though he admitted that he had never either thrown or blocked a punch or a kick ... I suggested that he put it to the test, right then and there. Now then, at the time, I had already earned a black belt in judo, I had practiced wrestling and boxing for several years, and I had been mostly recently practicing jiu-jitsu with a special emphasis on quick “dirty” street-fighting techniques drawn from krav maga and elsewhere. I apprised him of my training and said: “okay, come at me”, which he did. Our bout lasted, literally, about two seconds.

I was of the opinion that, through “input alone” one could definitely learn to read and write at a high level, but that the lack of “output” (speaking and, more specifically, the interplay of conversation) would likely leave the speaker with (a) poor pronunciation skills as the tongue, cheek, and jaw muscles would be insufficiently developed in the absence of actual practice, (b) slow response time in conversations, and (c) even greater difficulties when speaking in groups where multiple conversations often occur more-or-less simultaneously. On this point, my views have not changed.

I once met a Korean who spoke perfect Californian English. I mean, perfect. But he'd never been to any English speaking country. I told him I would have sworn he was a native Californian. How did he do it? His answer: "TV, man."

[Speakeasy]

I once met a Korean who spoke perfect Californian English. I mean, perfect. But he'd never been to any English speaking country. I told him I would have sworn he was a native Californian. How did he do it? His answer: "TV, man."

This is an interesting anecdote, but I suspect that the story is incomplete. In the context of this discussion, there is the implication that the individual learned to speak perfect English from “input only” by watching TV in Korea, a matter which I find implausible. That is, it is more likely that your Korean acquaintance studied English to a high level, either formally or informally, and that he perfected his aural and oral skills through a variety of means one of which included watching English-language television. By way of comparison, given the major hurdle that native-speaking Anglophones face when learning Korean, is it likely that they could learn to speak perfect, and I mean perfect, Korean by watching (input only) Korean television, exclusive of any other contact with the language? I suspect not. Even if this anecdote were both complete and true, your acquaintance’s experience would represent a major exception to that of most people who have learned, or who have attempted to learn, a foreign language.

[NoManches]

I once met a Korean who spoke perfect Californian English. I mean, perfect. But he'd never been to any English speaking country. I told him I would have sworn he was a native Californian. How did he do it? His answer: "TV, man."

This is an interesting anecdote, but I suspect that the story is incomplete. In the context of this discussion, there is the implication that the individual learned to speak perfect English from “input only” by watching TV in Korea, a matter which I find implausible. That is, it is more likely that your Korean acquaintance studied English to a high level, either formally or informally, and that he perfected his aural and oral skills through a variety of means one of which included watching English-language television. By way of comparison, given the major hurdle that native-speaking Anglophones face when learning Korean, is it likely that they could learn to speak perfect, and I mean perfect, Korean by watching (input only) Korean television, exclusive of any other contact with the language? I suspect not. Even if this anecdote were both complete and true, your acquaintance’s experience would represent a major exception to that of most people who have learned, or who have attempted to learn, a foreign language.

I agree. When people ask me how I learned Spanish, I don't tell them about the many Spanish classes I took, hours spent with tutors, research projects in Mexico, countless hours memorizing vocabulary, hours of frustration, blah blah blah blah

I usually tell them I spent a lot of time watching telenovelas because A) it is true & B) it's kind of funny to hear that a grown man likes watching telenovelas in Spanish and it can be a good conversation starter


To answer the main question that the OP posted:


I think it is possible but would take an incredible amount of input over the course of many years. In the example given, Boydell had about 30 years of input before he started to type. I'm sure he spent a lot of time thinking and reading inside of his head (subvocalizing), but other than that he spent many, many hours with input. I should point out that if the majority of his reading was with books and newspapers, then he was receiving nearly PERFECT English input with perfect spelling, grammar usage, vocabulary, etc.

I don't think it is practical or easy for the average language learner to wait a long time before speaking or writing, especially if they are learning a language because they have a desire to use it.

I am a believer that you can't say or write what you don't know. You need lots of input before you can efficiently speak and write, and the more input you have the better you will be at expressing yourself.

I think to be efficient the language learner should receive as much input as they possibly can but should work on output as well.

I noticed that when I was speaking for many hours each week I was pretty good at speaking. Now I am limited to tons of input and spend about 1.5 hours speaking each week (if I'm lucky). I have noticed that my output abilities have decreased despite an increase in input. What is happening to me might not happen to everyone but it leads me to believe that lots and lots of input is good but since I have a need to speak the language now, I have to practice speaking to be good at it. I can't afford to wait around a long time only exposing myself to input, in hopes that many years down the road I'll be good at output. I'll tell you what though, if I keep consuming the same amount of Spanish media for the next 30 years while working on my other skills, I can only imagine how "fluent" I will be. I'll check back in 30 years to let everyone know how it went.

Please excuse any mistakes, o am typing this from my (not so) smart phone

[Teango]

Several years ago, an acquaintance of mine maintained that he had learned Karate to a very high level by simply thinking about it (input alone), he firmly believed that he could defeat anyone in a match even though he admitted that he had never either thrown or blocked a punch or a kick. I suggested to him that, while he might have absorbed a great deal of theoretical knowledge, his lack of actual practice meant that his mind, his nervous system, and his muscles would not have developed the speed, timing, and coordination which only years of physical practice can yield and which are essential to a high level of performance. I offered that, if his assertion were true, then his “input alone” theory would apply to an endless list of combined muscular-intellectual activities such as gymnastics, free-style skiing, playing a musical instrument, and the like. As he was adamant about the level of skill that he had achieved, I suggested that he put it to the test, right then and there. Now then, at the time, I had already earned a black belt in judo, I had practiced wrestling and boxing for several years, and I had been mostly recently practicing jiu-jitsu with a special emphasis on quick “dirty” street-fighting techniques drawn from krav maga and elsewhere. I apprised him of my training and said: “okay, come at me”, which he did. Our bout lasted, literally, about two seconds. We repeated the exercise a couple of times with the same results.

Neo: I know Cantonese. [edit]


Morpheus: Show me.

Source: The Matrix, 1999.

[Speakeasy]

...
Neo: I know Cantonese.

...

The Simpsons, The Matrix.jpg

Think about the implications! I cannot draw a breath, my chest is caving in, the weight of the possibilities is crushing me ...