If you could learn any language without considering outside factors...

General discussion about learning languages
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Zegpoddle
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Re: If you could learn any language without considering outside factors...

Postby Zegpoddle » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:51 pm

What makes intrigue an "internal" factor, as opposed to "external" factors like utility, time, effort, or cost? Your question is interesting because it points to the difficulty of clearly distinguishing "intrinsic" from "extrinsic" motivations. Perhaps the messy truth is that no single factor can be defined as inherently intrinsic or extrinsic in a way that would satisfy every learner. To label any single factor as one or the other already presupposes a lot of anterior, unspoken value judgments. Additionally, a factor that is internal or intrinsic for you might be external/extrinsic for me. Studies on motivation generally decline to acknowledge any of these complications.

If we are talking purely linguistic features, I would study a Semitic language like Arabic or Hebrew because of their fascinating way of extending vocabulary by taking root words (typically a series of three consonants) and inserting various sets of vowels between the consonants to form related words and parts of speech. That's a brilliantly economical way to produce new words, and the morphology is so different from the western European languages I've studied that it fires up my interest and imagination.

For the tremendous agglutination and long series of infixes, I would choose Turkish. It would also be cool to speak a language that can be 70% understood thousands of miles away in Turkmenistan, but maybe that counts as an external factor.

For variety, I would choose one highly inflected language and one highly isolating language. My choices would be Russian and Mandarin Chinese, but for external reasons (the literature, the global reach, the cultures). I know that Hungarian has more cases than Russian, but that degree of inflection just becomes pure torture to learn. Seven cases is enough for me! (I loved learning German with its four cases. I especially loved that magic moment when my brain suddenly flipped and I woke up one day, after months of struggle, mysteriously able to get all the sentences out easily with the right case endings on each noun without having to consciously think about it anymore. Achieving automaticity in a highly inflected language brings its own "high.")

After reading Nicholas Ostler's Empires of the Word, I'm dying to learn ancient Greek, mostly because it was the lingua franca of such a vast swath of the world for centuries, but also because of "outside" factors like the literature and philosophy, which would draw me to both the Attic and Koine dialects/varieties. Given that rationale, it's strange that Latin doesn't interest me as much, perhaps because of its familiarity to me as a speaker of English and French (and perpetual student of Spanish). (I also dislike all those declensions in Latin, but Greek has plenty of difficulties of its own, so I realize I'm being inconsistent.)

I doubt I'll live long enough to get around to even a fraction of this (but isn't the number of years that I'll be alive an "outside" factor?) ;) Please, someone give me a million dollars so that I can quit working and spend all my time studying languages!

EDIT: Added parenthetical snark to next-to-last sentence.
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Graciously begging our alien overlords to remember to refresh the batteries regularly in their toddler’s cosmic Game Boy on which the simulation that is my life is running ;)

kulaputra
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Re: If you could learn any language without considering outside factors...

Postby kulaputra » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:32 pm

Dragon27 wrote:I'm not sure about beauty, but I would definitely like to learn one of those incorporating polysynthetic languages, like Navajo, just for its grammar. It's a real shame that these kinds of languages are mostly in decline, and don't have much content to offer.


Chinese over the course of its history has trended towards polysyntheticism, so if you give it a couple hundred (or a thousand+) years the world's number one language may very well be a (nearly) polysynthetic (or perhaps agglutinative) one.
1 x
Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

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eido
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Re: If you could learn any language without considering outside factors...

Postby eido » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:51 am

Zegpoddle wrote:For variety, I would choose one highly inflected language and one highly isolating language. My choices would be Russian and Mandarin Chinese, but for external reasons (the literature, the global reach, the cultures). I know that Hungarian has more cases than Russian, but that degree of inflection just becomes pure torture to learn. Seven cases is enough for me! (I loved learning German with its four cases. I especially loved that magic moment when my brain suddenly flipped and I woke up one day, after months of struggle, mysteriously able to get all the sentences out easily with the right case endings on each noun without having to consciously think about it anymore. Achieving automaticity in a highly inflected language brings its own "high.")

kulaputra wrote:Chinese over the course of its history has trended towards polysyntheticism, so if you give it a couple hundred (or a thousand+) years the world's number one language may very well be a (nearly) polysynthetic (or perhaps agglutinative) one.

I was just reading on a Quora answer that Chinese is an analytic language. It's classified as "isolating" by the government there apparently, for political reasons. I don't mean to derail the thread but I wanted to share my new knowledge I just gained.
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kulaputra
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Re: If you could learn any language without considering outside factors...

Postby kulaputra » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:26 am

eido wrote:
kulaputra wrote:Chinese over the course of its history has trended towards polysyntheticism, so if you give it a couple hundred (or a thousand+) years the world's number one language may very well be a (nearly) polysynthetic (or perhaps agglutinative) one.

I was just reading on a Quora answer that Chinese is an analytic language. It's classified as "isolating" by the government there apparently, for political reasons. I don't mean to derail the thread but I wanted to share my new knowledge I just gained.


Correct, hence, trending towards. Classical Chinese was more analytic then modern Chinese; generally one syllable = one word = one phoneme = one meaning/concept, whereas modern Chinese words are generally polysyllabic and has the beginnings of an inflectional morphology; further, various verbs are beginning to become grammaticalized (generally, action verbs which lose their explicit meaning and instead convey grammatical information).

Isolating and analytic come from different systems of classification (both are from the same text, though, Sapir's 1921 "Language: An introduction to the study of speech"). The first is Analytic/Synthetic/Polysynthetic, the second is Isolating/Agglutinative/Fusional. The former typology is quantitative, it's about the degree to which different parts of sentences are fused (or not fused) to form a sentence. The latter is qualitative, about the manner in which this actually happens.

Anyways, in general, languages cycle, usually from isolating to agglutinative to fusional and back to isolating (more or less). As Thomas Givon said, "Today's morphology is yesterday's syntax."
3 x
Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!


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