Paying for Classes

General discussion about learning languages
issemiyaki
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby issemiyaki » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:58 am

My opinion is that you don't need group classes. If you are a serious language learner .... scratch that ... if you're on this website .... you don't need a class.

Usually in one class, you MIGHT learn one particular grammatical structure/construction. If the teacher is good, you might be able to act out said grammar point through some group exercises. And that costs you ... $40? or so? No thank you.

On your own, with a good Assimil book, you learn two or three USEFUL grammatical structures per page! You get more for your money.

But since language is such an intimate thing, it should be acquired, initially, very intimately. Meaning, just you and the language, and nobody else. You need time to dabble in it, get used to the sounds, play with the sounds, and wrestle with the language yourself. Once you have a sense of the language and how it works ... meaning you can say ... I am John ... I want to .... I need to ... I like ... then you can move to a teacher.

But to each his own. Some just need a teacher every now and then. But, many might agree, language learning is rather organic. It's about you noticing the differences and similiarties in the language and working them out so that you can understand them on your terms.

So, I would say use a private tutor sparingly ... interact with friends .... and don't be afraid to make mistakes. No hard and fast rules.
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Hypatia
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby Hypatia » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:36 am

My best experience with classes has been in the country itself - I've had good experiences with intensive German courses in Berlin and Vienna, and the motivation of my fellow learners there was much higher than at evening classes in the UK when people come straight from work and are tired.

What level are you? For me personally (and it is VERY individual) classes are most useful at A2 and B1... A1 is pretty easy to teach yourself, and at B2 and above you really need lots of practice with native speakers. At A2 and B1 I value repeating new grammar constructions with other learners, and listening to the teacher explain nuances that I'd missed. It does depend on having a good teacher, though, and my experience is that most are quite mediocre.
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby tarvos » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:00 pm

I've taken classes in Mandarin in China and it's never been an issue for me. Not that I learned much spoken Mandarin, but learning a lot about the characters definitely helped me in my further exploration.

Nothing beats 1-on-1 practice with native speakers and using the language in your daily life, and it never will. Even after 4 half-an-hour tutoring sessions of Czech, Korean or Finnish I've been able to do very well with my tourist level abroad.

Wherever I am, wherever I go. Native speakers and actual contact are the way to go.
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby Hrhenry » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:56 pm

I mentioned this in the other forum, but I've had good luck with conversation classes. No grammar was taught. It was all about getting us to speak, and often. We were expected to already know enough grammar and rudimentary vocabulary prior to starting the class.

If the class is small, say 5 or 6 students, and if the teacher is any good at managing the class, everyone gets a fair amount of speaking time.

In my case, the teacher went beyond normal classes and also had small cultural gatherings, dinners, etc. with invited native speakers (usually friends of hers or visiting native speakers.) I realize that's probably not all that common, but I have high praise and fond memories of those classes.

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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby galaxyrocker » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:12 pm

Hrhenry wrote:[youtube][/youtube]I mentioned this in the other forum, but I've had good luck with conversation classes. No grammar was taught. It was all about getting us to speak, and often. We were expected to already know enough grammar and rudimentary vocabulary prior to starting the class.

If the class is small, say 5 or 6 students, and if the teacher is any good at managing the class, everyone gets a fair amount of speaking time.

In my case, the teacher went beyond normal classes and also had small cultural gatherings, dinners, etc. with invited native speakers (usually friends of hers or visiting native speakers.) I realize that's probably not all that common, but I have high praise and fond memories of those classes.

R.
==


I had free credit space once while I was at university so I decided to take a basic Spanish class pass/fail (I had to take another class, or be considered part-time and lose my financial aid). While it was only an intro class, our teacher really did go above and beyond (she was a current graduate student native speaker from Argentina). She would arrange evening events for us to practice what we'd learned and just learn more about specifically Argentine culture and such. She also brought in speakers from various areas she knew (we had one from Catalonia, one from Mexico, etc.) to help showcase the differences in dialects. It was quite an interesting way to do it.
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby dedalus66 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:45 am

Hypatia wrote:My best experience with classes has been in the country itself - I've had good experiences with intensive German courses in Berlin and Vienna, and the motivation of my fellow learners there was much higher than at evening classes in the UK when people come straight from work and are tired.

What level are you? For me personally (and it is VERY individual) classes are most useful at A2 and B1... A1 is pretty easy to teach yourself, and at B2 and above you really need lots of practice with native speakers. At A2 and B1 I value repeating new grammar constructions with other learners, and listening to the teacher explain nuances that I'd missed. It does depend on having a good teacher, though, and my experience is that most are quite mediocre.


Well I think I'm at B1 and that's why I was thinking about trying something new. It really is dependent on quite a few factors, isn't it? From most people's experiences, it seems that the response has been generally negative, with the odd positive story. I'll have to think about it.
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby aokoye » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:47 am

emk wrote:There are also also excellent intensive classes that typically produce substantial gains in a period of months. Good examples include FSI (if you work for the US State Department) and Middlebury Language Schools, which will expel you for speaking English (well, beginners get a week before they take the plunge). And I've heard of some Alliance Française chapters in France that run intensive courses combined with family homestays. Unfortunately, these intensive classes are all really expensive—US$7,000 and up is normal. I've conversed with people who've done some of these programs, and they were all pretty happy.


I also wanted to add that courses like Middlebury's and other university funded programs are also useful if you're in college because of the possibility of transferring the credit to school you go to. Also note that some of them grant scholarships. I've heard really good things about Middlebury's German program from someone who went there without any German experience. It was, as you said Emk, a completely immersive environment and while we did chat on the phone once or twice a week, it was only because we were both speaking German. The main downsides that I've heard about these sorts of programs is if you're learning a tonal language but the "people use the wrong tones" bits that I've heard has been anecdata. I also know, from experience, that it isn't uncommon for people to correct your pronunciation when you're in programs/classes where people are clearly motivated (something that you're going to be if you're paying for tuition). What's also useful about Middlebury and some of the other programs that have classes for beginners (not all do) is that when you aren't in class you are around people who are at various levels in terms of their proficiency.

My college, Portland State University, which I am returning to after a year and a halfish off, has a similar German program called Deutsche Sommerschule am Pazifik. I haven't been but I intend on doing it next Summer. It's five weeks of full language immersion and they bring in university professors from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland most if not all of whom are native speakers. From what I've heard from both professors and former participants it's a really great, fairly intimate, atmosphere and there is a lot of interaction with the professors outside of class as well. One of the things that's also nice about PSU's program is that you can take the Goethe Institute's B1, B2, and C1 tests while you're there (I'm hoping to sit the C1 test next summer).

I'm skimming a doctoral dissertation by Kathie Godfrey about domestic foreign language immersion programs and their efficacy vs short term study abroad and it appears that various studies have shown the domestic programs to be more efficacious in terms of language proficiency:

These studies on the language proficiency impacts of DFLI [domestic foreign language immersion] and short-term study abroad programs provide evidence that participation in DFLI compared favorably in terms of language proficiency gains to short-term study abroad. There are likely several reasons for this effect. First, the requirement that participants use the target language at all times gives students abundant language practice, also in challenging situations in which students might otherwise be tempted to revert to English. The provision of extracurricular activities adds additional opportunities for practice. Second, the familiar American living arrangements allow students to focus on language studies rather than try to make sense of unfamiliar aspects of everyday life in another country. Third, close contact to native speaker faculty gives students additional opportunity to practice speaking and allows the faculty to help students monitor progress. All of these features are possible within the controlled immersion setting and difficult to provide in a study abroad situation in which students are on their own outside of the language classroom.


Note that I only knew said dissertation existed because I was invited to the post defense talk that she gave to the world languages and lit department at PSU.
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aokoye
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby aokoye » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:12 am

issemiyaki wrote:If you are a serious language learner .... scratch that ... if you're on this website .... you don't need a class.


See I totally disagree with this. The fact of the matter is that everyone learns differently and while one context might not work for one person, that same context may be the only thing that works for another. There are so many reasons why this is the case but, to speak for myself, I learn best in classroom situations because otherwise it's way too easy for the motivation and excitement to just not be there.

Ironically the reasons for this also make it hard for me to be in classroom situations on a regular basis. My depression is the primary reason why I take as many breaks as I do in terms of learning languages both in and outside of classroom settings. In classroom settings it's essentially an issue of me needing to figure out how to get myself there when I often don't feel like I'm able to get out of bed. Add on to that the necessity of being able to find spaces that are conducive to studying.

Meanwhile if I'm not in a class and trying to learn, the likelihood of me being able to have the find the ability to study, to set up sessions on iTalki, to find and maintain any sort of structure is strongly diminished. Mind you that being able to actually get to class and study is a major struggle and is why I haven't graduated with a BA yet, but I've found I learn significantly better in a classroom setting than outside of one. All of this does not mean that I'm a less serious or less devoted learner than others, it just means that I need different things in place to engender learning.

I think it's also important to note (and I think someone has done this already) that even if you're in a class you still need to put in the effort outside of class. Not doing so is a recipe for failure in terms of language learning.

What it comes down to is that I'm really tired of people stating and expounding on the notion that if you're devoted to language learning or that if you have enough inspiration that you'll won't need classes. There are plenty of reasons why some people need the structure of classes in order to learn and that is ok. It doesn't make them somehow less than. That isn't to say that classes don't have their failings, because they do, but people have different needs in terms of learning.
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby lusan » Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:21 pm

After Assimil La Polonaise, I began with a tutor in Italki because I wanted to work on basic structures and pronunciation. I am very happy. I pay $10/hour for an experienced tutor which is 100 % dedicated to my learning needs. Given my experience, to attend physically any language school does not make sense. Note: I would not recommend it until reaching a A2 level. The vocabulary needs are very intense. I found that I could do it because I know passively more than 5000 words. It would very difficult for a beginner. Best would be do work independently with Assimil of TY and then do the tutor path.

My experience so far? Learning Polish is doable, After 1 year I can hold the A2 level conversation with my wife easily. With the tutor? Impossible, she is always finding all kind the mistakes! She keeps me in my toes, moving me forward to B levels. Tough but worthy. Of course, I also do Anki, Real Polish pods, and read. I realized that language learning is not something that we do and forget but it is very very long journey. Well... a very demanding and pleasant journey.
Last edited by lusan on Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kimchizzle
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Re: Paying for Classes

Postby kimchizzle » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:48 pm

I think paying for classes really depends on the teacher how well a student will suceed.

A lot of my French instruction was with paid classes in a college setting and the first year and a half I learned very little because the teacher would speak mostly in English and the students were able to ask questions in English. After that, I had teachers that taught mostly in French and students were asks to attempt asking questions in French the best they could, but it wasn't a strict requirement. I learned much more in those classes than the ones in English.

I learned the most though in intensive classes in France by teachers that were experienced specifically in working with students learning French as a foreign language. Every student had to take a placement test covering speaking, listening, reading and writing to match them in classes with other students of a similar level. Only French was allowed in the classroom, anc it was a firm requirement. All questions or things the student misubderstood had to be asked in French even if the student struggled to find the right words. Student participation was a big part of the class, with the teachers often asking students at random to explain a grammar concept or vocabulary word to the rest of the class to the best of their capabilities and the teacher correcting the student if needed.

Some things I took away about learning in a class or even with an online teacher.
A. A person learns much more when taught in the target language and required to use the target language to ask questions to the teacher.

B. A teacher trained and experienced in teaching students learning the target language as a second language can teach a student much more effectively than a teacher who is very knowledgable about the foreign language but not about teaching it.

C. A placement test that covers all areas of your target language capabilities is very helpful so that a teacher can assess where the student's difficulties are and create lessons to improve in those areas.
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