How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

[Uncle Roger]

It's a specific problem for certain languages I believe. I have wanted and needed to become fluent in Norwegian and that was a major problem for me. It's been confirmed to me by a Norwegian scholar/teacher/translator who really is very skilled and experienced and also by Reineke here on the forum , who introduced me to the concept of syllable delection. There is really an issue specific to Norwegian as a language, it requires extra listening work.

Have a read at my thread "Improving your listening skills: state of the art approaches?"
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=7679

French is probably similar.

I wouldn't drop French fiction, but I would consider it for what it can be at the moment: leisure, rehearsal of what you have learned with the occasional drop of learning. In my opinion, you should always prioritise "the work".

[rdearman]

Rick Dearman has said that language learning is hard and I believe he is right. I believe he is also correct and admire his easy going and affable 'devil may care attitude.' I on the other hand totally stress out in conversation and need to learn to relax.

I'm quite possibly the last role model anyone should pick! However, what you said about being depressed and frustrated sounds to me like you are demoralised. This is actually the topic of my presentation at the gathering about why people tend to quit.

My wife wonders why I get so depressed at times with my French.

I feel your pain. This is the situation I have been in with French for a long time. For me the issue wasn't demotivation or depression really, but rather being demoralised and having negative thoughts like: "I'll never learn this language!"
When these types of negative thoughts attack you need to put them on trial. Never is a long time. It's said that given infinite time a band of monkeys could type out the works of Shakespeare on typewriters. When you're demoralised you just feel that you cannot learn and so you feel bad. So if you're feeling bad about not learning, try to write down these thoughts on a piece of paper and then in your head have a pretend trial where you are the prosecuting attorney and you have to prove them wrong. On your paper you might have things like:
I'll never learn this &^^%ing language.
It is too hard.
I can't remember anything.
Just prove them wrong. It isn't too hard 72 million people have learned French as a second language. So out of 72 million people you must be smarter than some of them? So you can do it too. I can't remember anything is false, because you obviously remember some stuff or you wouldn't even be A1.

A lot of people say they don't have the motivation and therefore they quit, but actually what tends to happen is people see the really long road ahead and start to get demoralised about how long and arduous the trip will be. For a lot of people learning a language seems to be a breeze, but it would appear for you and I it isn't as easy. So there isn't any point punishing ourselves because we're not the smartest ones in the classroom.

The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favour to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.

Epictetus didn't seem to have a saying that fit well here.

But my point is try to see if depression is really just demoralisation in disguise. Review the reasons you wanted to learn French in the first place. If those reasons are no longer valid, then perhaps your depression is because your flogging a dead horse because of the sunken cost fallacy. If the reasons are still valid, so you still have the motivation, then take comfort in the fact that people learn at different speeds. And finally, periodically review your study methods with a critical eye. Do an honest assessment and if those methods aren't working, try others. If they are working, just slowly then stick with them.

Finally do a realistic review of your expectations. It might be that your expectations of yourself are too high, which can also cause a lot of frustration and anger.

[luke]

I am a person with a very fine voice but I literally can't stand to hear myself speaking French at this point.

I thought The Joy of FSI French Phonology was a decent course. Also Pronounce it Perfectly in French was pretty good too. I think I wrote a review of it, but my search isn't finding it right now.

[smallwhite]

... my teacher in Strasbourg is fantastic ...
... language learning is hard ...

It's probably teaching (someone or yourself) a language that's hard, not learning a language and certainly not learning a related language. When you're in charge, you can do anything you like, and such anythings may not be the best things to do. Is your teacher in charge of your studies, or do you manage it yourself, with him/her just teaching you certain things? Can you take classes instead or hire a proper teacher who manages your syllabus for you? Or can you just pick a log here that is a successful story, and do as the log OP does?

[Carmody]

Immense thanks to Rick, luke, smallwhite, and Uncle Roger for your very informed and expert advice. It is all so useful and relevant. You guys are all so very insightful and generous.

Rick, thank you so much for taking so very much time to write so thoughtfully and wisely on my predicatment. I will certainly think carefully about the many issues you raise. Your sharing of your wisdom is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[Carmody]

After careful review of people's suggestions I went ahead and took a Dialang test that smallwhite suggested. Test taking for me ranks right up there along side fear of Public Speaking. The results are:

Listening...B1
Vocabulary B1
Reading....B2
Writing.....B1

I frankly do not find them accurate. I believe they clearly inflate my skill set capability. I don't believe them for a minute.

However the good advice of people here has helped me to identify the real cause of my despair in my language learning. It is that I really, I mean really, have very poor Oral comprehension and Production. But I am going to put up a separate thread for that and maybe people can share some specific suggestions for addressing that under practical questions.

https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=8143&p=105683#p105683

Again my thanks to everyone for getting me to a "B" level, even if it is imaginary.

[Theodisce]

When I take a Dialang test I usually score lower than I expected (or the score matches my exceptions). Congratulations! I don't believe your results are imaginary.

[Carmody]

smallwhite

thank you very much for your very detailed analysis and asking of such thoughtful and highly detailed questions.

you are one very generous dude.

[smallwhite]

Listening...B1
Vocabulary B1
Reading....B2
Writing.....B1

I frankly do not find them accurate. I believe they clearly inflate my skill set capability. I don't believe them for a minute.

... I really, I mean really, have very poor Oral comprehension and Production.

My reflexes ask: Have you overlooked the 5th paper, the Structure one? It's actually on grammar.
I liked the (Greek) Writing paper but the Structure paper is probably more useful if you're only going to do 4.

I find your response to your test results interesting. Do you think, for example, rdearman's Dialang results in French were inflated as well, or mine in Greek? That I really, I mean really, have very poor Oral comprehension, and rdearman has worse? That'd be so sad to know

[NoManches]

If I had to prioritize:

Pronunciation would come first, followed by lots of reading and listening. Speaking would come next, followed by writing. Grammar study would happen during the beginning stages as well, and in a perfect world I'd have a pretty good understanding of grammar before I got big into speaking and writing.

All I know is that when the time comes to learn another language, a huge emphasis will be placed on reading and listening from the very beginning. If your speaking skills are really, really good but your listening skills are below average, you are going to have problems (I say this from experience). But, if your listening skills are really, really good and your speaking skills are below average, I think you'll be just fine.

One of the problems I had after college (where I was reading, writing, speaking, and listening in Spanish every day for classes), was that I dropped the writing and reading and stuck with speaking and listening. After all, my goal was to speak Spanish (at the time I could care less about writing in Spanish). What I realized after a year of no reading or writing, is that my other skills were being held back. Well, maybe they weren't being held back but I was definitely hitting another plateau and didn't realize how much reading could help me out with listening and even with my speaking.


So yea, prioritize your skills but don't neglect the "not so important" ones.