How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

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aaleks
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby aaleks » Thu May 10, 2018 12:07 pm

I am not a really experienced language learner so...

When I started studying English, almost 6 years ago, it wasn't like "I want to learn English" but more like "I want to understand what they are saying in that video". And at first my goal was listening comprehension. I wasn't a beginner at the time, English is English after all, so I had some basic knowledge about English grammar and knew a bit of vocabulary already. Then, after 3 or 4 month, I decided that I need to start to read books if I want to increase my English vocabulary. That's hard to achieve only trough listening - too slow. I knew from my previous experience with German that reading would help me to do it faster. So, I guess, it would be right to say that my priorities at that time were passive, or receptive, skills. I'd been working on both of them (plus vocabulary) simultaneously, they kind of reinforced each other.

Up till the last year (2017) I did nothing to improve my active skills. Although "improve" is a wrong word here because there was almost nothing to improve. I didn't work on my writing and speaking whatsoever. I assumed that if I could understand the language, I would be able to produce it somehow. I understood that more likely it would be a broken English but at the time I was okay with that. All in all, it had been 4 years already since I started studying English when I realised that I want to be able to communicate in English in a 'normal' way. At the same time I realised that my knowledge about grammar wasn't good enough to use the language actively. So I probably can say that the last year my priorities were writing and grammar.

Since I've not taken any exam and it's difficult to judge oneself, I can't say if my approach is effective or not. I think if I were to do it all over again I wouldn't wait so long to start writing in my TL. But having recently started a new language (Italian) I can say that I really need so-called "silent period". So I guess it would be once again listening+reading - first, active skills+grammar - next.
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby Carmody » Sat May 12, 2018 5:53 pm

Of course, as part of the 6 listed areas of study in the OP
1-Oral comprehension
2-Reading
3-Vocabulary
4-Grammar
5-Pronunciation
6-Writing
is the underlying need to remember what one has learned in: verb conjugations, grammar, vocabulary, etc. How does one keep it memory after one has learned it?
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby AndyMeg » Sat May 12, 2018 7:48 pm

For me the best way to remember things is to extensively interact with lots of native material of my interest (TV shows, movies, music, books, etc.). Interacting with native materials usually give me a lot more context and anchors to help my memory that more artificially made material usually doesn't give me. In order to get the most out of native material I need to pay a lot of attention to things and actively engage with it. So, for example, when I watch korean TV shows with english subs I do this:

I've gotten into the habit of comparing the korean I hear with the english subs I read and to also read some of the written korean I find while watching those TV shows (signposts, the text messages a character sends to another, name tags on uniforms, titles of books, names of places, the tags on supermarkets, etc.). With this approach I actually become aware of many things and I reinforce some stuff I already know or have heard/read about somewhere else.

I believe paying attention to things and engaging actively with them helps a lot with taking the knowledge from short-term-memory to long-term-memory. For example, I do this for a korean series of pages that teach you words, phrases and things about the culture:

I read these pages actively but I don't try to memorize anything: I try to relate the presented information with things I've seen before and I also ponder about different things. As most pages also have phrases/sentences with dual text (english-korean), I compare the two versions and I try to relate each part with its equivalent in the other language and also I try to notice differences and similitudes in the way the same (or a similar) idea is expressed in both english and korean.
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby luke » Sat May 12, 2018 8:18 pm

Carmody wrote:Of course, as part of the 6 listed areas of study in the OP
1-Oral comprehension
2-Reading
3-Vocabulary
4-Grammar
5-Pronunciation
6-Writing
is the underlying need to remember what one has learned in: verb conjugations, grammar, vocabulary, etc. How does one keep it memory after one has learned it?


From reading your log, it seems your much further along than the A1 assessment that's next to your picture. Even if that's an exam you passed, your clearly way beyond that, so seeing something like "intermediate" or Bx is helpful for followers like me, because you're clearly at least there.

On the 6 areas, sometimes focusing on one or two in addition to your extensive study is helpful. You seem to have a very complete study program, so I'm not seeing that you need any advice on that front.

But to your last question, "How does one keep it memory after one has learned it?", beyond the "you're using it so you're not losing it" principle, I have often re-studied something that was a slow slog the first time through. This "followup" is often much faster and my abilities are much better than the previous run at the same material.

Not saying that re-studying is always helpful or necessary, but it is a way to see clear progress. E.G. It took me 2 weeks to get good at Unit 7 FSI French exercises. If I can now do better with 2 days or 2 hours of study, I know I'm way better at that material than I was at the time I started that Unit.

If you're generally covering new ground, which it sounds like you are, following the news, vblogs, etc, then it seems you've got a solid base already and don't need to reread yesterday's news.
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby Carmody » Sun May 13, 2018 1:23 am

luke
From reading your log, it seems your much further along than the A1 assessment that's next to your picture. Even if that's an exam you passed, your clearly way beyond that, so seeing something like "intermediate" or Bx is helpful for followers like me, because you're clearly at least there.
That is kind of you to say, however I am being honest. My skill level assessment is based on:

1-the degree of difficulty I have in my weekly Skype session.
2-the degree of difficulty with my writing letters to my PenPals.
3-the fact that I still look up too many words with my book readings.

I am an archetypal Tortoise who moves slowly and really tries to improve through my daily study efforts. I will probably end up putting in another 800 hrs. in French study for 2018 as I did for 2017.

I am not being falsely modest as to my skill set level. In fact at the moment my very wonderful French language teacher from Strasbourg is working with me on pronunciation via Skype. She is fantastic and I am indebted to her. However, my pronunciation in speaking with her and my comprehension of what she says has left me feeling totally certifiable at A1 level. My wife wonders why I get so depressed at times with my French. I am a person with a very fine voice but I literally can't stand to hear myself speaking French at this point. But my teacher is helping me.

As you suggested, I am constantly reviewing my studies and I do log the hours but sometimes learning plateaus can be painfully long before moving on up.

When I see my performance level move up to an A2 or B1 I will definitely rejoice, but at the moment my speaking and comprehension skills have totally crushed my self-confidence. As I said my teacher in Strasbourg is fantastic but I am still at this moment going through a very emotionally shaky time.

Part of me just wants to curl up with a good French book and forget about conversation and pronunciation but if I did that I would never leave my comfort zone.

Rick Dearman has said that language learning is hard and I believe he is right. I believe he is also correct and admire his easy going and affable 'devil may care attitude.' I on the other hand totally stress out in conversation and need to learn to relax.

So I do what I can and keep on keeping on.......
:D
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby Xenops » Sun May 13, 2018 4:29 am

Carmody, you don't give yourself enough credit. At least you're still going: I got frustrated with French, declared the need for a break, and am starting Italian instead, which I'm already finding easier. I don't know anyone else on this current forum that finished French in Action?
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby Uncle Roger » Sun May 13, 2018 10:50 am

Well, it all depends on what you plan to do with the language, but if you are after living and working in the country where the language is spoken, I'd say, specific to French...

1-Oral comprehension
The hardest and most important thing by far, the one thing that, if weak, will effectively keep you from being able to speak and be spoken to. Nobody wants to be either party of a conversation in which one party is eternally asking the other one to repeat something, to slow down, to use simpler words.

2-Reading
Low priority in a world of google translate, online vocabularies etc. High reading comprehension will even risk to put you in a bubble of a false sense of fluency. In my experience, people are eternally underestimating how much easier it is to read (all the time in the world to guess, triangulate words) compared to listening.
Writing = printed text.
Speech = hasty, sloppy handwriting that changes at least slightly from person to person and magically disappears the moment is being written.

Which one do you think will be the most difficult?

However, I'd agree that at the very beginning, it's a good way to get mileage, assuming you are fairly certain that you know how to pronounce correctly what you see written. Maybe not too easy in French, though.

3-Vocabulary (addition: including verb forms in the various persons and tenses)
The biggest single factor influencing your oral comprehension (which in turn is the most important thing in an expat scenario) other than practice of oral comprehension itself. Stop thinking that all your problems come down to natives talking funny or too fast or whatever, start thinking that maybe you don't recognise words in speech enough because maybe you don't know them to start with. Harsh reality check, I know.

4-Grammar
Probably overrated in the sense that it doesn't have to be perfect to get you by. Plus, unlike vocabulary and "prosody", never heard of anybody complaining that he couldn't understand somebody because that somebody used too much grammar.
:mrgreen:

5-Pronunciation
Somehow slightly overrated in importance and at the same time poorly studied. Yes, you should man up and probably learn IPA, listen to specific material, try and become very confident in the connection between phonemes and graphemes, finish it off with a couple of sessions with a specialist teacher. But no, it won't make a hell of a difference to being understood, probably quite some more about your understanding of others. In "PR terms", how you present yourself as a foreign speaker, it's very important though.

6-Writing
Vastly overrated in my opinion. Again, online dictionaries, predictive texting, spellcheck, you name it.
Last edited by Uncle Roger on Sun May 13, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby smallwhite » Sun May 13, 2018 11:28 am

Carmody wrote:... the underlying need to remember what one has learned in: verb conjugations, grammar, vocabulary, etc. How does one keep it memory after one has learned it?

Remembering is the easiest part!

Learn Any Language wikia > Techniques

Google search results for "memory" under site HTLAL

Or if you did okay at school then just do whatever you did back then, whatever tried and true.
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby Uncle Roger » Sun May 13, 2018 1:45 pm

One shouldn't need to memorise grammar or pronunciation. I mean, each those topics are probably a mere few tens of notions. They are, relatively speaking, so few that using the language enough would allow you to touch on and revive each of them on a daily basis.

Vocabulary to fluency, instead, is a matter of a few thousand "headwords", which multiply further as single words. If you are not using the language everyday for a few hours and you are learning, you should (dare I say it?) look into spaced repetition software.
Honestly, by this day and age I woldn't be caught dead calling myself a language teacher if I weren't able to teach solid memorisation systems to my students.
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Re: How to Prioritize Language Learning Skills

Postby Carmody » Sun May 13, 2018 2:53 pm

Most grateful to everyone for the feedback; thanks.

Also for Uncle Roger...
2-Reading
Low priority in a world of google translate, online vocabularies etc. High reading comprehension will even risk to put you in a bubble of a false sense of fluency. In my experience, people are eternally underestimating how much easier it is to read (all the time in the world to guess, triangulate words) compared to listening.
This is an excellent observation that I have not heard mentioned anywhere, ever. Thank you. Problem is I love to read my French fiction; it really is a great source of pleasure.
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