What do you think of the 5 biggest mistakes when learning vocabulary?

[verbling]

Well what I understand is that one has to learn words that are used in everyday life and study it in a context.

[reineke]

Mistakes:

- rote learning from lists
- learning words you don't need
- learning words out of context. Sentences make part of larger texts. Forget about lists or if you mush create word lists with words taken from actual texts/conversations.
- not applying word knowledge (speaking/writing)
- not jotting down words. Verba volant, scripta manent.

No.1 = no.3

I think you can learn a lot of vocabulary even if you commit every single mistake in this list.

[Cainntear]

What do I think? I think "Who are they and why should I care what they say?" They don't give any solid credentials, and I've never heard of them.

I think "What evidence is there that these are mistakes?" and "By mistake, do they mean things that don't work at all, or things that are suboptimal?" because people have certainly learned language doing these things, and there are people publishing papers giving empirical evidence to support the very opposite.

Here's their five "mistakes"

1. Rote memorize words
2. Learn words that you don't need
3. Learn words out of context
4. Not apply words
5. Not jotting down words

And for some safe ground that we've talked about before here, here's Modria's 7 myths of vocabulary learning

1. Knowing a relatively small number of words takes you far
2. Word lists are of limited value
3. Presenting words in semantic sets facilitates learning
4. Words should always be learned in context
5. Words whose meanings have been inferred from context are retained better
6. Words learned productively are retained better
7. Vocabulary knowledge should not be tested separately

The main differences between them are that the video deals in absolutes, while Mondria is basically speaking against absolutes; that Mondria gives much more nuance; and that Mondria refers to research to support what he's saying.

2 of Mondria's myths directly contradict some of the so-called mistakes:

Mistake: Not apply words
Myth: Words learned productively are retained better
Part of Mondria's argument is that it takes less time to learn to recognise words, and you're not actually going to need to be able to say everything, so it's OK not to learn to use every word you learn.

Mistakes: Rote memorize words/Learn words out of context
Myth: Words should always be learned in context.
Mondria says what I've always said: you can't learn words "in context" but only "in a context" -- you will only know the particular nuances of meaning in the one or two contexts you've actually studied it in, which might be very far from the meaning in the next context you encounter it in.

Their core philosophy is one of "meaning is in texts, not in words", which is only half right -- meaning is in texts and in words. At the very basic level, knowing the meaning of individual words makes dealing with the added meaning given by phrases and context much, much easier. Besides, every word has what is termed a semantic core -- a central meaning that all nuanced meanings are derived from by some logic or analogy. Learning words out of context is starting with the "big picture" of the semantic core, and then the finer points of usage can be worked out through exposure.

The whole learn words you don't need sounds nice in theory, but how do you know which words you're going to need? I certainly always try to learn words that I know I'm going to need, but I also learn words that I don't know I'm going to need, because I might actually need them, and it would be nice not to have to run for a dictionary when the need for these words arises. I think they're overcompensating here -- school classes tend to teach you a load of unnecessary vocabulary that you don't do much with (lists of fruits etc). There's a middle ground that they're completely ignoring.

[Ani]

Nice post, Cainntear. That really lays out the meat of it.

Not learning words you don't need is silly when taken to the extreme. Certainly the dictionary is full of words that even most native speakers won't know, but if your goal is C1 in a modern language, how do you plan to do that without knowing the words for grapes and pineapple?

I'm not the most experienced language learner, but learning words "in context" has been the longest and least rewarding slog. The top 3 "mistakes" are my favorite way to learn, at least at the beginning.

[PeterMollenburg]

What do I think? I think "Who are they and why should I care what they say?" They don't give any solid credentials, and I've never heard of them....

Nice post, Cainntear. That really lays out the meat of it.

Not learning words you don't need is silly when taken to the extreme. Certainly the dictionary is full of words that even most native speakers won't know, but if your goal is C1 in a modern language, how do you plan to do that without knowing the words for grapes and pineapple?

I'm not the most experienced language learner, but learning words "in context" has been the longest and least rewarding slog. The top 3 "mistakes" are my favorite way to learn, at least at the beginning.

And I absolutely agree with both of you. Same sentiments as Ani for me, that is, nice post Cainntear.

[aaleks]

I'm the one who learns words in context, or in many contexts . I usually do not jot down words. I do not apply them, i.e. I don't try to speak, etc. I don't learn the words I don't need at the moment because I learn words on the go, so to speak, i.e. when I read a book, or watch tv.

The biggest gap of my English vocabulary is names of plants, fruits, animals, and the like. That doesn't mean that I don't know those words/names at all but I don't learn them beforehand. Usually if I encounter such a word in a book it's enough for me to know that it's a tree, a bush, or a flower. If I encounter the word again and again or just get curious I would look it up and try to remember.

[rfnsoares]

My biggest mistake when learning vocabulary is not have a good memory!

I have learnt words using word lists, textbooks, novels, newspapers, etc, i.e, in context and out of context. All that worked well, but I noticed that to learn really well the words you have to relax and not become to anxious. It takes time.

On the other side, I believe, is that I do not work on my productive skills regurlarly. I work too much on my input and most of the time, reading. I should speak and write more, spending more time building sentences, but I confess, this is too much time consuming.

[BOLIO]

I cannot believe people are saying they don't know who Luca is????

I am not a speaker of 11 languages like Luca. Having said that, I like using "rote" learning for some of the early vocabulary by using word lists like Iversen's method. However, I do now tend to use phrases vs just one word but will not always.

I am not sure I understand the learning of "words I don't need." How do I know if I don't need them? I mean I guess if someone is learning medical terms who does not work in the medical field for example that would be considered a waste of time. If I spend time on the first "625" or 1,000 or 3000 high frequency lists, are some of those words considered a waste of time?

I do agree with the activation of learnt words via incorporating them as soon as possible into my speech or writing them down (While saying them aloud is even better).

While Luca is probably one of my top two or three language learners, the whole thing feels "manufactured". Creating a void where there is none. I could be way out of line here. Compare this to something like is videos on how he uses Assimil or L2-L1-L2 translation or his accent videos, they just seem different. Probably just me.

[tarvos]

Wasn't this video made by the other guy in the video? Sprachheld or whatever his name is again?

I like Luca's methods for some parts of it, but I think his speciality is phonetics, not really vocab learning. Not that he isn't a good polyglot (he is, and I can confirm as someone who's met him several times). I'm more interested in his phonetics approach. His vocabulary learning doesn't do anything interesting for me, and I tend to be good with vocabulary anyway.

[Cavesa]

1. Rote memorize words
2. Learn words that you don't need
3. Learn words out of context
4. Not apply words
5. Not jotting down words

I don't doubt Luca's experience at all, mine is just a bit different. I am not a polyglot, but I have been learning vocabulary for some time and rather successfully, despite not satisfying my vocab desires completely and despite doing all these mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, it is not bad advice, I just wouldn't say it like something absolutely and universally true.

1.rote memorisation works. over 2000 words for an exam learnt in a weekend, that worked just fine (ok, it was one of the easier kinds of vocabulary, not a completely new and unfamiliar language). The problem is not the rote memorisation itself, the problem is not reviewing and using the vocabulary afterwards. If you can handle the rote memorisation (in my case it was anki without waiting for the words, I simply reviewed them repeatedly, but there are other ways) without being too unhappy while doing it, good for you. It is not a horrible way of learning, I know many people who have succeeded this way. But if you don't use and/or review the words after that enough, you are gonna lose them. That much is true. It is perhaps not the most efficient method in the long run, I believe spaced repetition is better (unless you are in a hurry), but that doesn't make it completely useless.

2.I agree with Bolio here. How do you know that you don't need it? Sure, it is so in some cases. But I think people underestimate this a lot. I have repeatedly needed and used vocab I had considered useless. And I have regretted not having learnt much more many times.

3.This one sounds good in general. But truth be told, I don't think you need more context than a translation for most words, when learning them. And if you read and listen to the language a lot, you will get more than enough context too, sooner or later.

4.This is a nice one, and it is definitely helpful to apply the words. But I have good experience with recalling vocabulary I had previously just SRSed and using it in the right context. Sure, learn directly with application at the beginning. But a large part of the vocabulary we learn is just material for substitution to already learnt patterns.

5.It helps to write stuff down, sure. If you read it later, and I usually don't. And my French vocabulary learning in the years without teachers and schools was like 95% reading and listening without jotting anything down, and it sufficed for a C2 exam.

So, while there is some wisdom and good advice in this, I definitely wouldn't judge these points that harshly. Yes, I strive to get closer to the "ideal vocab learning", but I have been doing rather well despite the imperfections in my style and making all these mistakes.

edited a grammar mistake