Being Bilingual

General discussion about learning languages
DarrenDaka
White Belt
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:03 pm
Languages: English (N) Polish (B1) , Swedish (A1)
x 41

Being Bilingual

Postby DarrenDaka » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:33 pm

Hi Guys!

Bit of a strange question. What is it like being raised bilingual? I have been thinking about this for a while and I just wanted to get an answer really. What was life like? How does language "feel" to you ? Like when I speak Polish It doesn't feel the same as when I'm speaking English and I wanted to know how people who were born / raised bilingually understand the concept / relate to what it is like being bilingual. Even if its any difficulties of being raised bilingual anything is welcome.

Any reply's would be great!

Have a nice day ... :)
0 x

User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6093
Contact:

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby tarvos » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:45 pm

My family is Dutch but I grew up partly in Canada and partly in the Netherlands, so I went through a mixed Dutch/English-language school system (Part of my education in the Netherlands was also anglophone). In practice that equates to me being perfectly bilingual. The result is usually that in English I have better knowledge of technical concepts but more primitive emotions may translate better in Dutch, although I've also had relationships where I just spoke English. It doesn't really hugely matter, you kind of associate both languages with different parts of your life, and considering I've spent loads of time abroad, on holiday, writing in English (it's actually my main vehicle of creativity: I always write poetry in English, rarely in Dutch), and considering the bulk of my information consumption is still through English, they are both primary vehicles of information.

I mean, for me it's just... everyday life. I don't really think about it. It's been this way since I was two years old and English doesn't register as foreign. Even languages that are clearly not my native tongue such as Russian and Spanish feel quite comfortable. I'm not sure what's left to describe. It's basically just something you're naturally able to do, it's not something you consciously have to think about.

The only thing that it did was that it was always really helpful abroad. And it taught me you can always learn a language no matter what. So I will never have to give up, because I learned English just fine even though my family are primarily Dutch speakers.
3 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.

DarrenDaka
White Belt
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:03 pm
Languages: English (N) Polish (B1) , Swedish (A1)
x 41

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby DarrenDaka » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:22 pm

I'm also quite interested in what it is like for those who have learned a language to a high level, is it natural to speak or do you need effort etc?
0 x

User avatar
Josquin
Blue Belt
Posts: 646
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:38 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: German (native); English (advanced fluency); French (basic fluency); Italian, Swedish, Russian, Irish (intermediate); Dutch, Icelandic, Japanese, Portuguese, Scottish Gaelic (beginner); Latin, Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Sanskrit (reading only)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=737
x 1764

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby Josquin » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:15 pm

I feel that I have an easier time posting on this forum talking about linguistics and stuff than having a regular conversation on everyday topics like who's going to do the dishes and clean the apartment. I should probably explain that my native language is German and I have learnt English to a high degree. I have some sort of British accent when speaking English, but people often recognize I'm German anyway.

The point is, I'm used to employing English for academic purposes while my everyday life is exclusively in German. That even used to trip me up when I had roommates with whom I could only communicate through English. So, for example, I know the English for "agglutinating language" or "case system", while I sometimes have trouble naming some everyday objects like a saucer, a shelf, or a bin. Let alone more elusive items like a lectern, a pulpit, or a gable. The reason is probably that I have never lived in an Anglophone country for a longer time, so I've never really lived everyday life through English. I have been to Ireland and the USA, but only for a few weeks each.

This puts me in the awkward position that I can discuss linguistics and other academic stuff quite eloquently on this forum or read 19th-century novels by the Brontës et al., but I sometimes don't know how to say "wipe the floor" or "take out the trash" idiomatically. I can hardly imagine what it must be like to handle official paperwork in English or do other more complicated stuff. I'm sure I could manage, but I'd probably lack a lot of vocabulary in the beginning.

Another point is understanding slang. I can watch English TV shows quite comfortably in the original language, but I notice that it's easier to understand Downton Abbey, where there is a lot of formal English, compared to e.g. Mad Men, where there is a lot of 60s US slang that I'm not necessarily familiar with. The same goes for sitcoms. I do get most of the jokes, but sometimes it goes right over my head, especially when cultural references and inside jokes are involved.

So, while I can use English to a very high degree, it's not with the same ease as I use my native language. I'm much more proficient in German than I'll probably ever be in English.
10 x
Oró, sé do bheatha abhaile! Anois ar theacht an tsamhraidh.

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby Speakeasy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:44 pm

Bilingualism? Fluency?

DarrenDaka, to my mind, your two-part question on being “raised bilingual” or having “learned a language to a high level” coupled with the qualifier “natural to speak (without) effort” suggests to me that anyone having such an ability would be considered “fluent” in two languages. Since fluency is a term that is as overused as it is widely misunderstood, I have provided, below, a summary of the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) for the highest level; a Proficient User at the CEFR C2 level.

If you have been following the posts by many of the non-Anglophone contributors to this forum, you will have very likely reached the conclusion that many of them are “proficient users” of English who fall somewhere within the C1-C2 range for educated adults. Some of these members might offer self-evaluations suggesting that they must “apply” themselves when communicating in English; that is, the process is not without effort. If so, I believe that many of these people suffer from an excess of modesty. They are proficient users and they have every reason to be proud of their achievements, even if their expressions of self-satisfaction must be limited to an appreciative smile when looking at themselves in the mirror.

On a more personal level, I am an Anglophone who learned French “to a high level” as an middle-aged adult in a full-immersion environment. In response to your question “is it natural to speak or do you need effort?”, I would offer that I function in French absolutely effortlessly. My thoughts occur to me in my adopted language and I meet the definition of C2 for an educated adult in the L2. However, I really cannot take any credit for what might otherwise be viewed as an achievement, I have spoken French exclusively for more than 30 years and the language has simply become part of my life.

Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR)

In closing, I would suggest that the CEFR Scale for Proficient Users implies that there would not be much “effort” involved for anyone at the C2 level. Here is a summary:

CEFR Global Assessment Level C2
Can understand with ease virtually everything heard or read. Can summarise information from different spoken and written sources, reconstructing arguments and accounts in a coherent presentation. Can express him/herself spontaneously, very fluently and precisely, differentiating finer shades of meaning even in more complex situations.

CEFR Self-assessment grid Level C2
Reception – Listening
I have no difficulty in understanding any kind of spoken language, whether live or broadcast, even when delivered at fast native speed, provided I have some time to get familiar with the accent.

Reception – Reading
I can read with ease virtually all forms of the written language, including abstract, structurally or linguistically complex texts such as manuals, specialised articles and literary works.

Interaction – Spoken
I can take part effortlessly in any conversation or discussion and have a good familiarity with idiomatic expressions and colloquialisms. I can express myself fluently and convey finer shades of meaning precisely. If I do have a problem I can backtrack and restructure around the difficulty so smoothly that other people are hardly aware of it.

Interaction – Written
I can express myself with clarity and precision, relating to the addressee flexibly and effectively in an assured, personal, style.

Production – Spoken
I can present a clear, smoothly-flowing description or argument in a style appropriate to the context and with an effective logical structure which helps the recipient to notice and remember significant points.

Production – Written
I can write clear, smoothly flowing text in an appropriate style. I can write complex letters, reports or articles, which present a case with an effective logical structure, which helps the recipient to notice and remember significant points. I can write summaries and reviews of professional or literary works.
4 x

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: California, Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - German (B2/C1) on/off study: Persian, Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 7030
Contact:

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:59 am

DarrenDaka wrote:I'm also quite interested in what it is like for those who have learned a language to a high level, is it natural to speak or do you need effort etc?


Spanish is my mother tongue but I was immersed in English and French at early ages and became bilingual (EN/SP) at about 6 and now have my oral French at C2+ level.

Today, I probably use and speak better in my L2 and L3 than my L1 because of the time I spend in these languages. I'm fully comfortable using English or French all day. So it tends to be rather effortless.

However, I have off days, when I am tired and my French comes out like I have a potato in my mouth. These are very rare (like once every 3 months??)
4 x
I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar

DarrenDaka
White Belt
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:03 pm
Languages: English (N) Polish (B1) , Swedish (A1)
x 41

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby DarrenDaka » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:09 pm

What does it actually feel like though? Do you "become" a different person when you speak a different language? Do you use cultural references , idioms and proverbs just as you would if you only had one native language?
0 x

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby Speakeasy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:36 pm

No. No. No. No. No. Speaking a second language is an acquired skill, it does not change your basic personality. You are who you are and nothing in this world will ever change that. Asking the question “what does it actually feel like (to be bilingual)?” is like asking a fish what is it like to live in water. That is, fish and truly bilingual people are so “one with and a part of their element” that they cannot imagine any other existence. It is "simply there."

As I progressed through the various stages of learning French, I was initially fascinated by absolutely every detail of the language and of the cultural context in which I was learning it. This was not a change in personality, it was an internal response to an enjoyable and stimulating life experience. Ultimately, as happens so often in life, the stimulus no longer generates the same response. That is, if we cannot increase the intensity of the stimulus, we simply adapt to it. It is no longer new, it no longer refreshingly different, it is no longer exotic, it is simply “there”, a part of us. We no longer take any notice of it. At a high level, after a number of years of exposure, the cultural references, the idioms, the proverbs, the differences in humour, cultural, religious, and political sensitivities are absorbed to an astonishing degree. We "become" the BORG. Nevertheless, upon joining the Borg, whether you're a Gentleman or Jerk, don't count on the Borg to change that for you.
Last edited by Speakeasy on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2 x

User avatar
emk
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1620
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:07 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Languages: English (N), French (B2+)
Badly neglected "just for fun" languages: Middle Egyptian, Spanish.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=723
x 6330
Contact:

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby emk » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:44 pm

DarrenDaka wrote:Bit of a strange question. What is it like being raised bilingual? I have been thinking about this for a while and I just wanted to get an answer really. What was life like? How does language "feel" to you ? Like when I speak Polish It doesn't feel the same as when I'm speaking English and I wanted to know how people who were born / raised bilingually understand the concept / relate to what it is like being bilingual. Even if its any difficulties of being raised bilingual anything is welcome.

So the first thing to mention is that people raised bilingually often have significant weaknesses in whatever language is not used by the community surrounding them. My children have been exposed to significant amounts of French in the home since birth, but I actually speak it better than they do right now.

Bilingual speakers often have a weakness in one language or another. For example, I've spoken a trilingual person in North Africa who said that he could hold personal conversations in Berber and academic conversations in French, but not vice versa. His French was very stilted and "bookish" but totally adequate for school work.

I speak almost exclusively French with my wife these days. It feels pretty natural—I just open my mouth and say stuff. The biggest limitation is the difference between my "home French" (the stuff I need around the household) and my "educated French". My "home French" is available even at 2am or when I'm sick or tired, and I rarely have to think about it. It doesn't really feel any different from my English, except it's a lot "smaller" and I have an accent.

My "educated French" feels a lot more artificial—to use it well, I need to be reasonably awake, I maybe need to drink a cup of coffee, and I often need to spend some time immersing myself in French. (Reading for an hour or two helps a lot.) Even then, I need to have my wits about me. At this level, French does feel different than English. I think this would change pretty rapidly if I were part of larger French-speaking community. I know that I could take the level of French that I have on my best days, and practice it until I had that level available on my average days. But the only way I know how to do that involves a lot of practice. At this point, it feels like one cup of coffee and a good night's sleep makes more difference than 3 months of study. So that's where I am: I'm pretty confident I could go to a French-speaking school or work in a French-speaking office, and the first 6 months would be exhausting, but I'd survive. But I don't know of any other practical way to "burn in" my academic French at a price I'm willing to pay while living in the US.
5 x

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10462

Re: Being Bilingual

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:48 pm

DarrenDaka wrote:What does it actually feel like though? Do you "become" a different person when you speak a different language?


I've met polyglots (raised bilingually or not) who have other personalities when speaking other langauges. I've also met polyglots who don't. Vlad presents some interesting thoughts:

5 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GawainStan and 2 guests