Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

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tommus
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby tommus » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:26 am

For me, there is a very important issue to improve listening by reading along with subtitles or transcripts:

The text has to match the audio very accurately!

Then use WorkAudioBook

I find that far too many subtitles are too inaccurate to read while listening. Your mind spends almost all its effort on trying to create some match between the audio and the text. To be effective, the text has to match the audio very accurately! Otherwise, neither the audio or the text is been understood correctly and effectively. So find matching text.

I have to force myself to not spend all my time messing around with editing audio and text to try and make great study material. Here is my most effective technique:

1. Get audio and text that match.

2. Play the audio with WorkAudioBook while reading the text from a plain text file. Don't waste time putting the text itself into WorkAudioBook. Don't waste time meticulously matching the audio chunks with complete phrases or sentences. Just let WorkAudioBook do its own segmenting of the audio. It won't be exact but that is not a big issue. OK, for some important phrases, you can quickly highlight the correct audio chunk.

Free WorkAudioBook

3. Click "Play Selection" over and over again while reading that segment in the text. Repeat as many times as necessary. When you are satisfied with that chunk of audio:

4. Click "Play Next", then go back to Step 3 (Click "Play Selection" over and over ...)

5. Keep going as long as you want. Record it if you wish.

The key points are:

1. It is very easy.

2. It doesn't waste time.

3. It is just as good as if you spent hours cutting, pasting, aligning, putting in Anki, etc., etc.

Keep it simple and almost all of your time will be spent improving your listening.
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby Sayonaroo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:37 pm

that program sounds cool. I'll have to see if it's more efficient than using kmplayer. it seems like it but i have to actually try using it to know for sure.

kmplayer has a AB repeat function so what you do is load the audio and press f5 to set point and f6 to point b. at that point it repeats point a to point b endlessly until you press f8 to turn the loop off. f8 is used to turn the ab repeat on and off. while you have the ab repeat off you can see a new point a and point b.

EDIT: I love that program. it's super efficient and i love how you can make it repeat the section.
Last edited by Sayonaroo on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby Uncle Roger » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:18 pm

Tommus, I see what you are saying but I make a point of correcting the subtitles of my Subs2SRS as much as possible. So far I haven't had to do that too often, maybe 1 in 10 or 8 cards. I reckon languages that tend to have longer words will have more difference between the audio and the subtitle.

My case to favour movies over audiobooks is that movies are 95% or so dialogue, whereas audiobooks will have also narration, which I think is not as relevant for me since my ultimate goal is to ensure I can understand people talking to me without asking them to repeat themselves. But I'll check your method out when I have time.
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby Uncle Roger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:37 pm

Ok, some time later, I feel a benefit.

I have moved on to create more content through Subs2SRS. Unluckily, AnkiDroid seems to cut the end of the audio file by up to 0.3 seconds, but luckily Subs2SRS allows ot make up for that.

I have now started to check the syncing of subs to actual audio to maximise the creation of usable cards. It takes more time, but given that the "yield" of a movie is up to 700-800 cards, it's well worth it.

It's hard to put a finger to the improvement, but I would say that straight away the breakdown was

50% of the audio strings were incomprehensible to me at first
30% of the audio strings I could understand about 50%
20% of the audio strings I could understand enough or totally

after a few weeks these categories are now closer to

20%
50%
30%

Of course I'm referring to the brand new material I see for the first time each day. Audio strings are given to me in random order and I'm still working off the same movies so I think it's a decent like for like comparison. The deck is some 2000 cards of which I have seen 1100 by now, 20 new ones on most days.
Last edited by Uncle Roger on Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby NoManches » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:51 pm

Recovering Anki addict checking in :D

I once tried Subs2SRS but my computer wouldn't let me do it at the time. I eventually gave up and stuck with the traditional method of binge watching without subtitles. If I wanted to do some intensive studying of the show, I would watch without subtitles and anytime I did not understand anything I would rewind and hit pause. I would then read the subtitles, hit play, and while looking away from the screen (listening only), LISTEN very carefully for what they were saying.

At my current level I am perfectly happy with this method because it isn't too often I have to rewind to check the subtitles (depending on what show I'm watching and if I've grown used to watching that show and listening to all the characters). HOWEVER, if I were at a basic to low intermediate level I do think subs2SRS would be an efficient way of allowing you to "cheat" and understand an advanced show

When I was an Anki addict, I would spend so much time using Anki that it was cutting into time I could have been watching TV or reading in my L2. With Anki I ended up having an extremely strong active vocabulary. I was working on at least one research project in Mexico and anytime I came across a word I wanted to say I would add it to Anki. The problem is that I was hardly adding words that I discovered via input (partly due to the fact that I barely read, so my input was limited to audio only). What resulted is what you mentioned in your second post: I could understand and say words that I knew very well (words I added to Anki) but my passive vocabulary was crap and I would have to ask natives to repeat themselves over and over again. This was frustrating and embarrassing.

I eventually ditched Anki and have been trying to read more (lately I'm doing a lot of reading). I've noticed that with reading you attack words from different angles. It was so hard while using Anki to add multiple definitions for a word. It was great for nouns and some basic verbs, however. With reading you see words used in different contexts and I feel like you get a better feel for what they mean.

So back to your question:

Try this experiment: hit mute on your TV show and watch 5 minutes of your show with subtitles ON. Can you read and follow along without having to pause, look up words, think about grammer, etc?

If so then yes, your listening skills are probably lagging but you might have solid comprehension.

If you are like me about a year ago, you will actually be able to "hear" almost everything that is said but will have problems actually comprehending it. This is a big problem. To solve this I'd recommend a ton of reading. In your situation though, Subs2SRS might be helpful because you will at least be reading the subtitles.


Based on everything I've said, my most state of the art method for working on listening seems to be my Kindle. A lack of reading has led me to have a weak passive vocabulary and poor comprehension (despite decent "listening" skills. One summer I filled up an entire notebook by transcribing podcasts that I paid somebody to transcribe for me so I could check my work).

Another thing I should add about reading: when reading you get exposed to tons of words that are commonly used together. I've noticed that sometimes I will watch a show and be able to make out missing words in a sentence only because I was able to hear some of the words that were used and have associated those words with the words I couldn't hear in the first place.

Hope this wasn't too off topic and hope it was helpful. Please keep track of your Subs2SRS progress and let us know how it goes
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby Uncle Roger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:46 pm

Hola!

thanks for your comprehensive reply!

I liked your 5 minute experiment, but I don't even have to try. I have been able to understand subs welle nough for a long time.
It doesn't surprise me that the sort of opposite happens to your Spanish. I find Spanish to be one of "best spoken" languages in Europe if not the world. Few vowel sounds, a lot of sounds feel "overpronounced" compared to many other languages. The ease with which an Italian speaker like myself can understand much better Spanish than, for instance, French (which some say is grammatically closer to Italian) is not a surprise.
On the other hand, verbs have many, many persons and tenses, so it doesn't surprise me that you felt like you were missing many words.
Also, I think grammar is slightly overestimated when it comes to listening and reading... I mean, you can understand a lot even with imperfect grammar. But that's just my personal view!

Thanks for the feedback :)
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby NoManches » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:51 pm

Uncle Roger wrote:Hola!

thanks for your comprehensive reply!

I liked your 5 minute experiment, but I don't even have to try. I have been able to understand subs welle nough for a long time.
It doesn't surprise me that the sort of opposite happens to your Spanish. I find Spanish to be one of "best spoken" languages in Europe if not the world. Few vowel sounds, a lot of sounds feel "overpronounced" compared to many other languages. The ease with which an Italian speaker like myself can understand much better Spanish than, for instance, French (which some say is grammatically closer to Italian) is not a surprise.
On the other hand, verbs have many, many persons and tenses, so it doesn't surprise me that you felt like you were missing many words.
Also, I think grammar is slightly overestimated when it comes to listening and reading... I mean, you can understand a lot even with imperfect grammar. But that's just my personal view!

Thanks for the feedback :)


That makes total sense, Spanish is "best spoken" and with the alphabet being so similar to the English alphabet I think it makes things a lot easier for listening (at least for being able to make out words).
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby Kraut » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:31 am

Sayonaroo wrote:that program sounds cool. I'll have to see if it's more efficient than using kmplayer. it seems like it but i have to actually try using it to know for sure.

kmplayer has a AB repeat function so what you do is load the audio and press f5 to set point and f6 to point b. at that point it repeats point a to point b endlessly until you press f8 to turn the loop off. f8 is used to turn the ab repeat on and off. while you have the ab repeat off you can see a new point a and point b.

EDIT: I love that program. it's super efficient and i love how you can make it repeat the section.


VLC Player also has the AB repeat function, which I find more comfortable: here the mouse alone does the job:

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... GFOQea3_6M:
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby Uncle Roger » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:59 am

These are all viable options, but what I like about Subs2SRS is that, I personally think, it's a truer test of your listening skills.

A line from a movie gets taken away from its context (in fact some of the movies I haven't even seen), thrown at you without images, without knowing what were the previous lines in the dialogue, the mood, the character that was speaking, no lip reading of the actor etc.
If you can understand it at this level of difficulty, then you should be sorted for anything else. Too many times have I fooled myself into thinking that I could understand something (in terms of pure listening) but the truth was that I had seen that movie recently already, or that the scene in itself already narrowed down possibilities and clued me up too much.

But yes, it is a boring approach for many, it requires some preparation work (and correcting the timing of subtitles can be really dull), you have to make up for the fact that AnkiDroid tends to cut off the last few seconds of any audio file, you need to find the (in my case) Norwegian subtitles (which are not very common) etc.

I'll mix it up with other things, especially listening to radio programs. But I don't think that listening to pretty long speeches, like a radio show guest going on solo about a topic for up to a minute is very representative of real life situations. It's just the normal "call & response" of everyday functional communication that was failing me and it feels a lot better now. Granted, there will be diminishing returns at some point, like with any approach, but for a mere 30-45 mins a day, so far so good.
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Re: Improving your listening: state of the art approaches?

Postby rdearman » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:05 am

You should try substudy for chopping up the audio.

https://github.com/emk/subtitles-rs/blob/master/substudy/README.md
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