Language: redundancy, accuracy and acquisition

General discussion about learning languages
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sfuqua
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Re: Language: redundancy, accuracy and acquisition

Postby sfuqua » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:02 pm

I'm pretty sad to hear about the bad language instruction that is going on in some classrooms that people have seen. I'm not sure that it is reasonable to expect any classroom to have a big impact on language learning. We all know about how much work it takes to learn a language, and the usual time that a student spends taking a course is trivial compared to the overall time it takes to learn a language.

Now, you can learn some things in a classroom. In some ways I remember the old grammar translation course in Latin that I took in high school was an ideal language course. We learned and were tested on grammar and vocabulary. We read some simple texts, if I hadn't transferred schools, I am certain that I would have graduated from high school with an ability to read Latin.

Would I know enough to watch TV in Latin, or go visit Ancient Rome and get a job? No. People have to do a lot more than a course or even a series of courses to learn a language. Learning grammar? Sure. Learning to read? Sure. Learning to speak at a C1 level, I don't think so except in an intensive program like FSI or DLI.

Schools shouldn't do claim they can do it. Students shouldn't expect them to.

To a certain extent, the whole language teaching industry is bogus. For the most part, courses don't teach language very well. People learn languages and some courses can help. My son was an unmotivated Spanish student with decent grades in high school and he can't reliably order a taco at the food truck. :roll:

After only 5 years of self study, I can reliably order tacos :D
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Re: Language: redundancy, accuracy and acquisition

Postby Cainntear » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:16 pm

Cavesa wrote:However, I disagree that accuracy comes only from speaking. Actually, speaking is an activity that goes on too fast for the accuracy (I often realize a mistake one second too late, as it has already left my mouth). All those tasks you mention require as much accuracy as you want them to require. If you do just the coursebookish listening activities with primitive questions, of course you don't need accuracy. If you challenge yourself to understanding completely, it is a different activity. Also, those inaccurate activities (like extensive reading and listening) can lead to accuracy, if you get exposed to the accurate content for long enough.

My view is a bit more subtle than I really said above.

There's several parts to it, but I suppose I'm coming at this from a teacher's perspective, rather than a self-teacher's.

First, with receptive skills (reading and listening), there is no way for a teacher to observe whether or not the student has genuinely processed the language using the right rules, rather than understanding just enough to get the meaning and then letting redundancy fill in the blanks. Any attempt to force the students to prove they've noticed a particular word draws far too much conscious attention to it, at which point you're not checking the language they've managed to automatise.

Then writing... well, I've seen lots of people who learn things in writing and then don't use it in speaking. The rules are consciously, explicitly known (declarative memory) but never internalised or automatised. Because writing can be done consciously, students can paper over the cracks without ever solving the underlying problem.

The reason speaking is so powerful is that a gap or mistake in the subconscious language model is readily evident. Speech must be done at speed, and even if you do self-correct, your initial error is apparent, so can be worked on to fix. (For me as a teacher, hearing both an error and an immediate self-correction gives me lots of information about my student's language.)

But even as a self-learner, I think speaking has an advantage here. I tend to self-correct when I make errors, because the time spent self-correcting is a nuisance and an inefficiency. My brain doesn't want to go through that process all the time, which leads to the brain trying to avoid the situation that triggers the self-correction. The same isn't true of self-correction in writing, because even in your own language, correction and revision of what you've written is part of the natural process (I couldn't tell you how many times I've deleted words and reformulated the sentences even in one paragraph of this message).
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Re: Language: redundancy, accuracy and acquisition

Postby Random Review » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:47 am

Cainntear wrote:
Cavesa wrote:However, I disagree that accuracy comes only from speaking. Actually, speaking is an activity that goes on too fast for the accuracy (I often realize a mistake one second too late, as it has already left my mouth). All those tasks you mention require as much accuracy as you want them to require. If you do just the coursebookish listening activities with primitive questions, of course you don't need accuracy. If you challenge yourself to understanding completely, it is a different activity. Also, those inaccurate activities (like extensive reading and listening) can lead to accuracy, if you get exposed to the accurate content for long enough.

My view is a bit more subtle than I really said above.

There's several parts to it, but I suppose I'm coming at this from a teacher's perspective, rather than a self-teacher's.

First, with receptive skills (reading and listening), there is no way for a teacher to observe whether or not the student has genuinely processed the language using the right rules, rather than understanding just enough to get the meaning and then letting redundancy fill in the blanks. Any attempt to force the students to prove they've noticed a particular word draws far too much conscious attention to it, at which point you're not checking the language they've managed to automatise.

Then writing... well, I've seen lots of people who learn things in writing and then don't use it in speaking. The rules are consciously, explicitly known (declarative memory) but never internalised or automatised. Because writing can be done consciously, students can paper over the cracks without ever solving the underlying problem.

The reason speaking is so powerful is that a gap or mistake in the subconscious language model is readily evident. Speech must be done at speed, and even if you do self-correct, your initial error is apparent, so can be worked on to fix. (For me as a teacher, hearing both an error and an immediate self-correction gives me lots of information about my student's language.)

But even as a self-learner, I think speaking has an advantage here. I tend to self-correct when I make errors, because the time spent self-correcting is a nuisance and an inefficiency. My brain doesn't want to go through that process all the time, which leads to the brain trying to avoid the situation that triggers the self-correction. The same isn't true of self-correction in writing, because even in your own language, correction and revision of what you've written is part of the natural process (I couldn't tell you how many times I've deleted words and reformulated the sentences even in one paragraph of this message).


It's also embarrassing, whereas self-correction in writing is mostly invisible. I think that's even more important.
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