Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby rdearman » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:26 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
s_allard wrote:In this debate I am tempted to say: A plague on both your houses. The idea that immersion means trying to absorb a language just by sheer exposure has been totally discredited. There was a chap from Brazil on HTLAL who attempted to learn Mandarin from scratch simply by watching Chinese videos for an hour a day with his daughter. I wonder what ever happened to that.


For those who weren't around back then:
Learning exclusively with authentic video (There is a summary in the last post of the thread.)

I did always wonder what happened to that guy.

I'm getting the impression you all feel that listening to Japanese podcasts while I sleep isn't helping me? :(
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby Cainntear » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:57 pm

rdearman wrote:I'm getting the impression you all feel that listening to Japanese podcasts while I sleep isn't helping me? :(

Only if you listen to them in reverse. Everyone knows that subliminal sleep learning needs backward audio. ;)
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby tarvos » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:58 pm

rdearman wrote:
jeff_lindqvist wrote:
s_allard wrote:In this debate I am tempted to say: A plague on both your houses. The idea that immersion means trying to absorb a language just by sheer exposure has been totally discredited. There was a chap from Brazil on HTLAL who attempted to learn Mandarin from scratch simply by watching Chinese videos for an hour a day with his daughter. I wonder what ever happened to that.


For those who weren't around back then:
Learning exclusively with authentic video (There is a summary in the last post of the thread.)

I did always wonder what happened to that guy.

I'm getting the impression you all feel that listening to Japanese podcasts while I sleep isn't helping me? :(


I'm pretty sure the evidence runs contrary to the idea.
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby smallwhite » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:49 pm

Cainntear wrote:
rdearman wrote:I'm getting the impression you all feel that listening to Japanese podcasts while I sleep isn't helping me? :(

Only if you listen to them in reverse. Everyone knows that subliminal sleep learning needs backward audio. ;)

But Japanese is already SOV :roll:
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby rdearman » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:14 pm

smallwhite wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
rdearman wrote:I'm getting the impression you all feel that listening to Japanese podcasts while I sleep isn't helping me? :(

Only if you listen to them in reverse. Everyone knows that subliminal sleep learning needs backward audio. ;)

But Japanese is already SOV :roll:

That actually made me laugh out loud and everyone turned to look at me! :lol:
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby reineke » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:05 am

rdearman wrote:
jeff_lindqvist wrote:
s_allard wrote:In this debate I am tempted to say: A plague on both your houses. The idea that immersion means trying to absorb a language just by sheer exposure has been totally discredited. There was a chap from Brazil on HTLAL who attempted to learn Mandarin from scratch simply by watching Chinese videos for an hour a day with his daughter. I wonder what ever happened to that.


For those who weren't around back then:
Learning exclusively with authentic video (There is a summary in the last post of the thread.)

I did always wonder what happened to that guy.

I'm getting the impression you all feel that listening to Japanese podcasts while I sleep isn't helping me? :(


"A man must be a little mad if he does not want to be even more stupid."

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Learning new vocabulary during deep sleep
January 31, 2019
University of Bern

"Researchers of the University of Bern showed that we can acquire the vocabulary of a new language during distinct phases of slow-wave sleep and that the sleep-learned vocabulary could be retrieved unconsciously following waking. Memory formation appeared to be mediated by the same brain structures that also mediate wake vocabulary learning.

Sleeping time is sometimes considered unproductive time. This raises the question whether the time spent asleep could be used more productively – e.g. for learning a new language? To date sleep research focused on the stabilization and strengthening (consolidation) of memories that had been formed during preceding wakefulness. However, learning during sleep has rarely been examined. There is considerable evidence for wake-learned information undergoing a recapitulation by replay in the sleeping brain...

Memory formation does not require consciousness

Besides its practical relevance, this new evidence for sleep-learning challenges current theories of sleep and theories of memory. The notion of sleep as an encapsulated mental state, in which we are detached from the physical environment is no longer tenable. "We could disprove that sophisticated learning be impossible during deep sleep," says Simon Ruch, co-first-author. The current results underscore a new theoretical notion of the relationship between memory and consciousness that Katharina Henke published in 2010 (Nature Reviews Neuroscience). "In how far and with what consequences deep sleep can be utilized for the acquisition of new information will be a topic of research in upcoming years," says Katharina Henke."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 113837.htm

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2018.12.038
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby romeo.alpha » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:07 am

zenmonkey wrote:When I heard Olly's podcast my eyes rolled at first - but he's sort of redefined what he means by immersion in such a way that he sort of makes sense. Yes, comprehensible immersion is better than just noise.


I don't think he's the one doing the redefining, rather the rest of us are. His definition of immersion is correct, when we say immersion what we really mean is "some immersion". That does mean we're talking about different things, but when someone with no experience with learning languages comes across the notion of immersion, the first thing they'll imagine is what Olly is talking about.
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:17 am

romeo.alpha wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:When I heard Olly's podcast my eyes rolled at first - but he's sort of redefined what he means by immersion in such a way that he sort of makes sense. Yes, comprehensible immersion is better than just noise.


I don't think he's the one doing the redefining, rather the rest of us are. His definition of immersion is correct, when we say immersion what we really mean is "some immersion". That does mean we're talking about different things, but when someone with no experience with learning languages comes across the notion of immersion, the first thing they'll imagine is what Olly is talking about.


No, he’s actually said he intended it as a provocation. As someone else stated, it’s two ships talking past each other. Also, this is a year old discussion about very little indeed.

No one mean immersion to mean “10 000 hours of incomprehensible input” as he states in the video. Later confronted, he noted he exaggerates about this. He’s even spoken in his podcast about it.

I wouldn’t presume to assume that someone coming across the idea of immersion is thinking about artificially creating an incomprehensible environment locally vs thinking about someone who is moving abroad for a short period and taking classes locally with a mix of both. How do you you know what someone will imagine or not?
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby romeo.alpha » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:04 am

zenmonkey wrote:No, he’s actually said he intended it as a provocation. As someone else stated, it’s two ships talking past each other. Also, this is a year old discussion about very little indeed.


The post prior to mine is February 25th, 2019. So, today. You've got a funny definition of "year old".

No one mean immersion to mean “10 000 hours of incomprehensible input” as he states in the video. Later confronted, he noted he exaggerates about this. He’s even spoken in his podcast about it.


You've never heard of AJATT I suppose?
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Re: Richards vs Kaufmann on immersion/comprehensible input

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:43 am

romeo.alpha wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:No, he’s actually said he intended it as a provocation. As someone else stated, it’s two ships talking past each other. Also, this is a year old discussion about very little indeed.


The post prior to mine is February 25th, 2019. So, today. You've got a funny definition of "year old".


Did you even read it? It has nothing to do with the main topic of the thread - it's a response to rdearman's joke about learning in your sleep. My post, that you quoted, and the main content of the thread and EVEN the joke are over a year old.

No one mean immersion to mean “10 000 hours of incomprehensible input” as he states in the video. Later confronted, he noted he exaggerates about this. He’s even spoken in his podcast about it.


You've never heard of AJATT I suppose?


No, never. :roll:

Are you saying that AJATT recommends 10 000 hours of incomprehensible input?
If so, you've completely missed the intent of his method or website.
Yes, he talks somewhere about listening to 10 000 hours of Japanese in 18 months, listening when you sleep, listening all the time...

But for those over-the-top posts Khatzumoto is mostly talking about comprehensible immersion and comprehensible study. For example, when he writes about using 10 000 sentences Khatzumoto explicitly states that you should "know the meaning of every word in the sentence." The AJATT site, for all its faults, is still very clear about one thing ... if it is boring material, it isn't good material. The listening to 10 000 hours is incidental (even while you sleep ...), it's also a way of reinforcing the concept of All Japanese All The Time.
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