HTLAL vs LLORG

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mrwarper
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby mrwarper » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:24 pm

MamaPata wrote:discussions [...] often end up very personal or mostly circling round. (I don't think this is a forum problem, I think it's a people problem).

Regarding that, I don't see the slightest difference between both sites ; )

So mostly I figure that my time will be better spent elsewhere.

This I eventually figured myself too, so I'm mostly back to my own 'solipsistic pursuits', which is one reason why you don't see much of me any more, even if I'm glad to see some people back here still make interesting comments on otherwise tired topics.

On the subject of theorists vs. practical learners...

By the time I arrived at HTLAL (2010) I think few individuals were on an 'all-academic' camp, and if some more remained on the 'hands-on' one, I would say they were not really that focused on actual learning -- any real value in theories comes from them being trialled by experience, and in practice there is only so much stuff you can do (let alone get right) without prior knowledge of a subject before you realize there must be some reason for x/y/z / some other / easier way to do this / someone else who tried that, etc., so it must be a good idea to have a look at 'theory' in one form or another.

I think if some progress is expected to be seen among those who remain regulars (re: 'people problems'), we (you) should see some eventual convergence between those two profile classes, compounded of course with some evolution parallel to what was seen in HTLAL as people here get more experienced, and new members come on board.

As for feeling intimidated to post back at HTLAL, I never did. I consider it's only natural to bone up on any subject as necessary if you intend to partake in discussions meaningfully. Otherwise I would be consciously adding to the noise, which was never my thing.

On the other hand, there is again only so much anyone wants to share over and over, or needs to learn about language learning, or any concrete languages. This means more experienced learners will eventually move on, unless they enjoy the social side of it enough to keep hanging around (yet not so much as to move on to evil, er... social sites -- this just reminded me of the 'shallowness geeks' term coined back at HTLAL ; ). Even so, those who stick around won't necessarily keep a steady level of 'vocality'...

But all of this (past vs. present of the community, real or perceived changes in participation level, profiles, and whatnot) was discussed in the past at HTLAL too, so I'll leave it here.

As for the second question by rdearman, I would seriously consider hunting down most interesting contents of the forum wholesale and organizing them to have a 'real' main website (all I see now is a few links to 'guest posts', which I don't think will draw much attention). In turn, the main site should be prominently visible, and kept tidy, clean, and well organized -- kind of like the forum was a drafting board and the website more of a finished 'product'. I think this would maximize both its usefulness at large, and its potential to attract new visitors/members.

Edit: as usual, wording/spelling/punctuation mistakes.
Last edited by mrwarper on Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby Sarafina » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:44 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
emk wrote:I would strongly support people trying more weird experiments here and logging about them. I mean, come on, that's how you get a zillion people reading your log. Just try to learn 6 Assimil courses at the same time, or learn from children's picture books, or try to teach yourself Spanish almost entirely using television (hi!). This is how we all learn clever new methods, and what their pros and cons are.

So everybody, please go forth and experiment, for our vicarious learning pleasure!


Some of our members were also active on HTLAL, but I hadn't paid attention to their methods until I started following their logs here. I'm deeply inspired by those who get impressive results from:

  • 5 minutes per language
  • reading the Bible in parallel text
  • reviewing the grammar and listening to Assimil according to a rotation schedule
  • using their own silver bullet to learn multiple East Asian languages
  • going from textbook to textbook and studying them till perfection
  • listening to (related) target language audio for hundreds of hours

Then we have the wordlists, Assimil in two weeks (hey, I skimmed each of my courses in two hours the other week), football... Who isn't experimenting? I'm inspired by you all, and I'm ready to try (almost) every method you present. I want to go full throttle and overlearn my material, and I want to be lazy. :)


Does you/anyone have links to these type of experiments that members of either site did? It sounds like an interesting read.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:00 pm

Cainntear wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:What I'm surprised on this discussion is that although it was hinted at, it really wasn't mentioned. What killed htlal , aside from terrible management, was Facebook.

Facebook has slowly pulled the user-base away from all forums - before one could have forums for specific activity but now that audience finds it easier to go to a single place and join a group (open or closed) that caters to those interests. The forums that survive are those that provide services beyond community, conversation and social feedback.

The value of any place is actually having the critical mass of interactions.

You're absolutely right, and I find Facebook groups maddeningly useless for seriously language learning discussions. Facebook is all about "recency" in communications, so it's really difficult to just call up an old discussion if a new user asks a question that has been asked before. This means that any language groups I've been in are boringly repetitive, answering the same old beginner questions time and again, and watching clueless beginners give totally incorrect responses to pretty simple queries.

Facebook is evil. Kill it with fire.


Some closed curated groups work a little better (a Syriac group I belong too has interesting content) but the majority of the open-ended polyglot groups are usually a tremendous waste of time. I do recruit there - and post links to here when I see someone that has a serious question.

But the unending "how do you say blah-blah in Swahili" just kill me.

Mostly useless but I'm still in a few.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:25 pm

Sarafina wrote:Does you/anyone have links to these type of experiments that members of either site did? It sounds like an interesting read.


Assimil Hebrew in two weeks (AML)
I can't find all the old HTLAL topics where Serpent mentioned football/soccer as a motivator and booster for target languages. :)
Three-column wordlists (Iversen; originally presented at HTLAL)

The methods from my bullet list are inspired by posts/logs by Expugnator (5 minutes (or thereabouts)), Iguanamon (Bible in parallel text), Thunter (Assimil rotation), Leo Smith (East Asian languages), Peter Mollenburg (textbooks et al.) and Theodisce (target language audio).

I've forgotten to mention dozens of other members. These were just a few ones off the top of my head.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby Tristano » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:09 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
Sarafina wrote:Does you/anyone have links to these type of experiments that members of either site did? It sounds like an interesting read.


Assimil Hebrew in two weeks (AML)
I can't find all the old HTLAL topics where Serpent mentioned football/soccer as a motivator and booster for target languages. :)
Three-column wordlists (Iversen; originally presented at HTLAL)

The methods from my bullet list are inspired by posts/logs by Expugnator (5 minutes (or thereabouts)), Iguanamon (Bible in parallel text), Thunter (Assimil rotation), Leo Smith (East Asian languages), Peter Mollenburg (textbooks et al.) and Theodisce (target language audio).

I've forgotten to mention dozens of other members. These were just a few ones off the top of my head.


two that come into my mind are Bakunin's natural language assimilation and s_allard's core vocabulary.

--

The number one feature of both HTLAL and LLORG in my opinion is the logs. Unfortunately the logs are relegated here as just another section. I would like to be able to do more with it, and filter logs per languages without having to open ten pages to find another learner of Dutch :mrgreen: But I do understand that is risky to heavily customize the platform and HTLAL could show that very well.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby smallwhite » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:30 am

rdearman wrote:OK, Let me embed another question in this thread. What could be done to make LLORG better?

What does better mean? What is LLorg and what is a good LLorg? What kind of people do we want to attract? You attract different people with different things. "How to use Assimil - step one listen blind - step two listen and read" attracts newbies, for example. What attracts linguists and ling students? Why do we only have 2 translators? What do we want LLorg to be? A community (emphasis on the now like a chatroom) or a treasure trove (emphasis on the past with strong search functions and keyword tagging)? Do we want more logs, more Q&A, or more general discussions? What kind of discussions do we want? "You are wrong because this study says xxx", or "you are wrong because what you say is nonsense"? Do we know what we want? I didn't know we wanted more users. What kind of promotion or word-spreading did we do at the Polyglot Gathering? How much can one expect of volunteers?
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby Serpent » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:02 pm

smallwhite wrote:Why do we only have 2 translators?

What do you mean?
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby smallwhite » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 pm

Serpent wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Why do we only have 2 translators?

What do you mean?

Only 2 of our members work as translators.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby mrwarper » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:40 pm

smallwhite wrote:Only 2 of our members work as translators.

If you mean outside this forum, then it's at least three.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby Ogrim » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:33 pm

smallwhite asks a lot of interesting questions. For me, the members are the forum, and it can only be as good as those who post make it. Personally I think it would be nice to see more in-depth, longish articles on the static side and more contributions to the blog, and I appreciate the work people like Chung have done by creating language profiles. That section could be developped as well. I do wonder though if the work is really worth it as long as the static site remains almost invisible. I don't know, but I suspect most new members come directly to the forum and not because they came across the blog or the Wiki.

When I joined HTLAL in 2012 I did not find it particularly academic in style, and my impression is that LLorg is very much a continuation of how HTLAL was by the time I joined with many of the same members having found a new home here. One thing that has gone away is the yearly TAC buzz, but to me TAC seemed to be more about bonding than anything else. Sure, there was a competitive element to it, with a winning team every year, but I rather appreciate the community spirit that exists here and the creation of Study Groups has more or less maintained the "bonding experience" TAC provided.

Challenges and competition stimulate many people (although I am not one of them) so if anyone can come up with ideas to launch new challenges in addition to those already existing (superchallenge, output challenge etc) that may also create more activity and buzz on the site.
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