HTLAL vs LLORG

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HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby rdearman » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:08 pm

In the recent thread about what makes a good log, someone mentioned that they preferred not to have personal details and another person did. But the comments got me thinking about the differences there might be between this forum and the old HTLAL. Do you think LLORG is less formal, and less about language learning than community? Or are they both about the same? I also saw a post recently about other forums where a user was doing more "point/counterpoint" type debating, which we don't really do. I believe there was a desire on the old HTLAL to foster a more academic style of posting. I feel HTLAL seemed to have a lot more information about scientific and linguistical research, but that could just be my perception. What are yours?
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby Brun Ugle » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:30 pm

If you look back at the older posts on HTLAL, they were very formal and academic. A lot of the posts seem almost a little stuffy in their style. Of course, there was tons of great information, but beginners weren't really encouraged to comment. It gradually changed over time and became more open to beginners and language enthusiasts. The feeling of the place became more open and friendly, but a lot of the academic debate dried up. I feel like this place is even less formal and more open. I like the feeling this community gives me. I feel like we are friends and that everyone is welcome. Of course, it would be nice to see some more of the academic debate of the old days on the old forum, but I think what we have here is more useful to the average person. Nobody needs to feel intimidated about asking questions and they usually get answered in a friendly and helpful manner.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby smallwhite » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:56 pm

There was a wider range of opinions on HTLAL, more insights, lots more thinking. LLorg is rather one-sided, rather predictable. I'm constantly refining my learning methods, making hypotheses and going to HTLAL about once a week to find info or insights about my hypotheses. I look on LLorg only for resources (textbooks). On HTLAL people do all sorts of crazy experiments and log them. On LLorg everyone newbie or veteran believe in the same one thing and everyone does or wants to do the same one thing. HTLAL has dreamers, pioneers, explorers. LLorg has learners.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby Jimjam » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:01 pm

I agree that HTLAL was definitely more academically inclined to a degree which some, including myself, found intimidating. I remember posting there once and actually apologising as i don’t have any background in linguistics and felt like I was intruding on a conversation I wasn’t included in even though I had things to add to the debate. This has definitely changed on this forum thankfully. I don’t post very often but when I do, I don’t feel intimidated to do so as the forum feels much more welcoming. It’s nice to see threads on here that look less like colleagues discussing research and more like friends sharing their love of language. (This is painting both forums with very wide brushes as both exhibit the opposite qualities too but it still rings true from my personal observations)
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby emk » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:07 pm

smallwhite wrote:There was a wider range of opinions on HTLAL, more insights, lots more thinking. LLorg is rather one-sided, rather predictable. I'm constantly refining my learning methods, making hypotheses and going to HTLAL about once a week to find info or insights about my hypotheses.

HTLAL only shows 10 active threads in the past month, so I'm presuming that most of the value in HTLAL these days is in the archives.

I remember that HTLAL tended to have plenty of "learning fads", where huge portions of the forum would all try out the same new technique at once. But HTLAL has been around for a very long time, so if you look at the archives, you can find many different fads over many different years. Lots of great stuff there.

LLorg is newer, and we haven't had as many fads yet. Also, I miss the annual TAC chaos a bit. :-)
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby Serpent » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:17 pm

I think the community has changed naturally to accomodate more different people, and the overall attitudes on the internet have changed to some extent. I view this forum as a fresh start compared to what we had there. I think many of us have posted things on the old forum that would make us cringe now :P

As for academic discussions, I've previously proposed a general learning subforum, for those articles people post on how to be a better learner :) I wouldn't really want it to be extremely formal (or limited to science as opposed to personal experience), but it would be a good space for some academic debate too.
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby Theodisce » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:21 pm

smallwhite wrote: On HTLAL people do all sorts of crazy experiments and log them. On LLorg everyone newbie or veteran believe in the same one thing and everyone does or wants to do the same one thing. HTLAL has dreamers, pioneers, explorers. LLorg has learners.


Perhaps we have already found the right formula for language learning :D .
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby emk » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:41 pm

Theodisce wrote:Perhaps we have already found the right formula for language learning :D .

I would strongly support people trying more weird experiments here and logging about them. I mean, come on, that's how you get a zillion people reading your log. Just try to learn 6 Assimil courses at the same time, or learn from children's picture books, or try to teach yourself Spanish almost entirely using television (hi!). This is how we all learn clever new methods, and what their pros and cons are.

So everybody, please go forth and experiment, for our vicarious learning pleasure!
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby iguanamon » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:43 pm

I will preface this post with these comments. I am not a linguist. I have only been a member at HTLAL since 2010. My opinions may be wrong and are based on my perceptions of my observations. Here it goes.

In the past we had more members who were more academic. Some of them had strong opinions about language-learning and language-learning methods. The internet and its possibilities of gathering people with similar interests was new and exciting. People who had been isolated were discovering how amazing it was to be able to discuss such an esoteric activity as language-learning and ideas were going around and bouncing off of others. Other people noticed. More people joined. More people joined who were less than academic but still felt like they had every right to chime in with their two cents worth too, even if they didn't fully grasp the concepts. The academics grew tired of the hoi polloi and being bothered by people who may have had much less knowledge and experience than they did questioning their reasoning. They moved on to youtube, personal websites or, back to their solipsistic pursuits where they would not have to endure or tolerate such questioning.

Now, concepts of language-learning are much more widely known and available. The LR technique is not new anymore. Srs is not new. The DLI and FSI courses have been online for a long time. Their benefits, use by self-learners and limitations are widely known. Everybody and their grandmother knows about Assimil, Pimsleur, Linguaphone and their uses, limitations and benefits. They have been discussed ad infinitum. Anybody can go to youtube and watch the videos, or to our own wiki... and people do. (There used to be a time when newbies would come here and had to be helped. Now they generally come here with more of a base about what it takes to learn a language.) Academic papers are online and generally accessible. One of our members posts regularly about them. In fact, there is probably an academic paper or study available to support or refute any second language acquisition point one wishes to make. In the early/"glory" days of HTLAL people were discovering and sharing all this for the first time. It was new and exciting. Now, it isn't new anymore. It's out there for anyone with Google to search and read for themselves.

HTLAL started gravitating more towards the new members who joined who wanted to learn a language for any reason. You can see it in how discussion in the "General Discussion" area has declined dramatically over the years as discussion in "Language Logs" has increased. The new membership was less academically minded and had more of a practical nature about them. They wanted to learn a language, not necessarily to discuss the nature of its acquisition to the nth degree.

Towards the end of HTLAL in the last three to four years of it, that was its state and that has continued here. More of the discussion about learning started to take place in people's logs. Maybe you read them or maybe you don't, depending on the languages they're learning or the people writing them. Nobody can read them all and have time to learn a language too. Having more of the discussion taking place in logs works to segment the discussion. Not everybody reads my log, Cavesa's, Rdearman's, or Vadim's. We tend to gravitate more towards similar like-minded individuals, similar people who are like ourselves or even just people who are learning/have learned the languages in which we ourselves have interest. Obviously, diversity is our strength. I don't learn Japanese or German, but I find the logs of dedicated learners of these languages interesting and I often glean tips and advice from them that I wouldn't know about if I didn't read them from time to time.

The older discussions on HTLAL were sometimes illuminating and sometimes were the equivalent of watching paint dry. We still have several members here with an academic predilection, but the majority of our membership is more interested in the practicalities of language-learning. Perhaps this may be part of a pendulum swing and the pendulum may gravitate back towards more of an academic discussion about learning here on the forum, but I doubt it. There are just too many opportunities for the academics to speak directly on platforms over which they have more control. I think that may be why most of those folks left HTLAL and the discussion went with them.

Time moves on. Circumstances and opportunity change. As Thomas Wolfe said, "You can't go home again".
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Re: HTLAL vs LLORG

Postby rdearman » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:57 pm

emk wrote:
Theodisce wrote:Perhaps we have already found the right formula for language learning :D .

I would strongly support people trying more weird experiments here and logging about them. I mean, come on, that's how you get a zillion people reading your log. Just try to learn 6 Assimil courses at the same time, or learn from children's picture books, or try to teach yourself Spanish almost entirely using television (hi!). This is how we all learn clever new methods, and what their pros and cons are.

So everybody, please go forth and experiment, for our vicarious learning pleasure!

I'd like to, but I can't think of any crazy stunts which haven't already been done.
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