Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

General discussion about learning languages
Speakeasy
x 7661

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby Speakeasy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:56 pm

galaxyrocker wrote: ... I do think we're seeing a trend where universities no longer view themselves as giving students a well-rounded education, but instead provide specialized job training (which saddens me, but that's a different story), and I suspect that we'll slowly start to see language requirements fade out.
This highly regrettable trend has been reported in American media for the past couple of decades. It began as a response on the part of the academic establishment to the increasing demands from the marketplace to provide “job ready” graduates which, given the extremely high costs of an university education, received rapid, wide-spread support from the students.

Previously, employers had been willing to hire either (a) university graduates with no experience whatsoever, or (b) professionals possessing experience that was in the same field, but not an exact match to the job requirements, and to accept that there would be a learning period during which the employer would be required to “subsidize” (in appearance only) the salary of the newly-hired employee. I say “in appearance only” because (a) in hiring a recent graduate, the employer added a new employee to his workforce possessing the latest theoretical knowledge in the field whom he could easily mold and integrate into his team, and (b) in hiring someone with experience in the field, he could benefit from the cross-pollination from the industry at large. This was a genuine a “win-win” formula that had proved its merits for literally centuries.

This situation began to change in the early 1990’s when employers, seeking an “immediate return on their investments” in all areas of business, including that of manpower, began to require that job applicants possess “exactly” the requirements to match their job descriptions, despite how little sense this actually made (we should bear in mind that most people charged with the responsibility of hiring new employees are ill-trained for such a responsibility, have many other things to do in their truly busy days, are under immense pressure to perform, and devote rather begrudgingly very little genuine effort to the new employee selection process; that is, their primary goal is to simplify their own lives and, if being rigid helps relieve the pressure they’re under, well, it’s just too bad for the job applicants).

The arrival of increasing numbers of university graduates in the job market, coupled with the increasing mobility of the professional workforce, generated a “buyer’s market” for employers seeking professionally-trained personnel. Recent graduates had difficulties finding employment in their fields of study, experienced employers had their curriculum vitae rejected because their experience was “not exactly” what the employers were looking for, and the pressure on the universities to produce “job ready” graduates steadily increased.

The vast majority of the universities themselves were, and remain to this day, “in competition” for student enrollments. In the blink of an eye, with a view to maintaining or increasing enrollments, the universities began to emphasize the “job-producing” aspects of their curricula and deemphasizing the humanities, including those of foreign language instruction, which most employers viewed as providing “no immediate return on their investments” in manpower. Game, set, and match!

EDITED:
Tinkering.
Typos, despite the tinkering!
1 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4988
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17753

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:30 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
If everyone agrees, it is waste of time (universities don't care enough to actually want good results, students don't care enough to actually try and they drop the language as soon as they are allowed to, the society doesn't care as "everybody speaks English"), why is this show still going on?


I don't think anyone's answered this, but it's because American universities like to pretend their goal is to offer a well-rounded education. It's the same reason why they still have required classes like humanities, of (in the case of mine) theology and philosophy (on top of a language requirement). They pride themselves on being a place where individuals go to develop as a whole, instead of just job training. However, I do think we are seeing a trend away from that. My university, for instance, doesn't have the language requirement for engineers or business majors. So I do think we're seeing a trend where universities no longer view themselves as giving students a well-rounded education, but instead provide specialized job training (which saddens me, but that's a different story), and I suspect that we'll slowly start to see language requirements fade out.


Yes, that is a cultural difference. Here, this is supposed to be the role of highschool. Usually, czech kids going abroad (for good or temporarily) find the highschools much easier in the US, covering much less content. But the roles completely change after that, with the american universities being in general better.

It is a very common question, what is the purpose of the university studies. Well rounded education, or job training. There is no universally correct answer. But the longer I am thinking about it, I think it should be mostly job training these days, no matter how sad thas is. The university degrees have become so widely spread (in every country of the europe and us/canada) with so much requirement lowering and lowering of the expected results, that I'd prefer to see most degrees being a good job training, rather than pretence of genuine education going beyond that and towards individual development. It is sad. But I am actually surprised the american universities still hang to their well-roundedness, despite the fact people pay a lot of money to get their degree, so it's only logical they want to profit from it economically as much as possible.

IronMike wrote:
Cavesa wrote:So, what would be better? Taking the 7% as a message like "oh, we are such a stupid society not to learn languages more", or actually giving up completely and leaving languages only to people actually interested in them and studying a language degree?

I think what you're seeing with this 7% metric is the people who are actually interested in languages and studying for a language degree, all told.

Ah, my bad. In that case, I'd say it is quite a high number actually.
2 x

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby aokoye » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:59 pm

IronMike wrote:I think what you're seeing with this 7% metric is the people who are actually interested in languages and studying for a language degree, all told.

I'm pretty sure that's not what the study the article took their numbers from is showing. They are at the very least counting everyone in undergraduate language courses if not undergraduate and graduate courses. Initially it's not entirely clear (based on my skimming, I don't have time to read the entire study) if they are only counting enrollment in undergraduate courses however one of the charts in the appendix clears that up - the drop of "more than 111,000 spots" is counting graduates and undergraduates.
From the data source:
we contacted 2,696 institutions of postsecondary education teaching languages in the United States. These included accredited two-year and four-year institutions, universities, and a number of accredited seminaries.

2 year institutions don't have language degrees in that I don't think they have majors or minors (and I would assume a good chunk of seminaries don't either, though they teach Biblical Hebrew, Latin, and/or Biblical Greek depending on the institution). Though thinking about it further I know at least Portland Community College has a certificate in ASL interpreting which is probably more rigorous than language programs at most 4 year institutions. Additionally not all 4 year institutions have majors or minors and the ones that do don't always majors or minors in languages (or all/any of the languages that they teach).
Going on the study says:
We asked informants to provide enrollments in credit bearing language courses other than English and gave them the option to respond on our Web site or by e-mail, mail, fax, or telephone.
...
For the purpose of the survey we define introductory enrollments as those in first- and second-year courses and advanced enrollments as those in third- and fourth-year courses. Enrollments in introductory classes include a variety of tracks. In some institutions, enrollments in
introductory classes reflect the presence of a linguistic or cultural general education requirement. Advanced undergraduate language enrollments may lead to language minors and majors and may also reflect courses taken as a part of professional preparation, such as Spanish for the health professions, German for business, and so on.


And then the chart in the appendix I was talking about:
Image
The actual number of students enrolled declined by 111,364.
1 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
Ani
Brown Belt
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:58 am
Location: Alaska
Languages: English (N), speaks French, Russian & Icelandic (beginner)
x 3842
Contact:

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby Ani » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:03 pm

Speakeasy wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote: ... I do think we're seeing a trend where universities no longer view themselves as giving students a well-rounded education, but instead provide specialized job training (which saddens me, but that's a different story), and I suspect that we'll slowly start to see language requirements fade out.
This highly regrettable trend has been reported in American media for the past couple of decades. It began as a response on the part of the academic establishment to the increasing demands from the marketplace to provide “job ready” graduates which, given the extremely high costs of an university education, received rapid, wide-spread support from the students.


Wait wait.. well rounded OR job ready? Those are the two choices? I think that's completely unfair. If we were talking about an intense college language program that gets people from A0 to C2 in 4 years, this forum would be cheering. How about all the college program's that get kids from baby face teenagers to ready to design a bridge in 4 years? Or build a rocket? It takes really intense formation for many of these other subjects. What do we always say about not learning two languages at once? Going from highschool pre-calc to formed mathematician takes a concerted effort. There just isn't enough time in a lot of degree programs.

I went to one of the few schools that offers a BE - Bachelor's of engineering and I started out in that track before switching to math. The BE program was 21 credits/ semester. There were "extra" required courses for forming a well rounded engineer but nothing for forming a well rounded human. Where would we have found the time?? As it was, some kids took a deferred 5 year track because the workload was crushing.
2 x
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Speakeasy
x 7661

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby Speakeasy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:43 pm

Ani, thank you for your considered comments. Nevertheless, I am somewhat surprised by the strength of your reaction. In fact, I do not understand it all! The general thrust of the discussion to date has been that, for a wide variety of reasons, there seems to be little incentive to enrol in elective foreign language courses across the broad spectrum of college/university education in the United States.

Galaxyrocker merely pointed out a trend in American education at the college/university level. I supported his observation by noting that American media have been reporting on this trend for the past two decades and I offered my own explanation as to what seems to have been driving this change. Neither he nor I suggested that four-year university engineering/science/mathematics programmes are undemanding.

EDITED:
Typos.
2 x

User avatar
neuroascetic
White Belt
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:32 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: Native: English
Learning: German
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?p=92431
x 80

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby neuroascetic » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:17 am

My ideal is that universities' strive to develop well-rounded individuals. But until society cares enough to doing something systematically about the skyrocketing tuition of American universities, I think it is unconscionable to go tens of thousands of dollars in debt without a clear plan of how you are going to make money with that investment.

What is truly sad is watching friends who strove to be well-developed who were then crushed by a job market that didn't know how to value their skills and their quality of life suffered as they struggled to stay afloat while trying to make their student loan payments.

The change I would like to see happen is an orientation towards lifelong learning. Instead of this intense investment from 18-22 years of age in a career path, while you are still figuring out who you are (and if you are wrong, it is costly to try again), it should be assumed that all throughout your adult life, you will be learning and working simultaneously. This means you work right out of high school, but you take classes at the same time. Work hours will be decreased so that you have time to take 1-2 classes.

Your education will be iterative. Either you are trying to broaden yourself as a person or you are gaining knowledge and skills to move in a certain direction in your job. The work that you do informs which type of classes would be most useful. And the slower pace of education teaches you how what you are learning can be applied (I would also like to see people come up with novel, great ideas because of a 18th century French poetry class they are taking). Everyone will be able to bring a much better profile to their work. Sure, you are an engineer, but an engineer with a background in ancient languages and histology. The way you solve problems will be different than your coworker. Or you are an HR manager who is studying early 20th century social movements that inspires you to develop more humane policies. Or you are someone that studies something that has nothing to do with your work, but it makes you happy.

This model would also help people become more resilient to massive changes to their industry. One, because they'll be able to anticipate change and be proactive in how they respond (either by moving with the changes in their industry or going into a new field). And two, since learning and growing has been habitual, change is not as threatening and retraining is not as humiliating. As it is now, taking classes while working full-time is a form of torture that drives most people crazy.

As it is now, you have to be extremely motivated to take classes after entering the working world and that needs to change. I'm not sure how you structure the incentives (tax breaks for companies and individuals who take part, a cap on the number of hours you can work, etc.), but I think that this only works if individuals are free to choose what they study, not their employer.

To move in this direction, it requires a fundamental shift in how society views education.

edit: removed a redundant sentence.
3 x

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5181
Contact:

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby Serpent » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:14 am

Cavesa wrote:Around here, B2 tends to be the demanded entry level to study popular languages, B1 at some very remote universities without much of a reputation (I have a backup plan requiring B1 German :-D ). Of course the teaching degrees are much less difficult than the philology or translation ones (I looked at the plans rather carefully), but the competition is still big. Faculties offering degrees in English, German, French, or Spanish can choose their students from a large crowd. The less popular languages have different entry requirements of course.
I'm a bit late but wow :D
Here it's only a requirement for English. I mean you certainly are in a better position if you speak a FIGS language but you don't have to, not even at the prestigious university I failed to graduate from. I know someone who applied and got a decent score in English, Russian and the third exam (I forgot which one, but probably history or IT). When applying, she listed English and French under the languages she'd studied, despite not liking French... And she ended up in the French group, presumably just based on that.

On the flip side, there's no control over what language you "get" in addition to English. It's largely sponsored by the state, so at the translation department they learn all sorts of cool languages like Finnish, Dutch, Farsi, Kazakh*... My friend was part of an experiment where they studied Armenian as a free but obligatory third foreign language - usually the third one was paid and optional, so you could choose anything that was offered.
*I know at least one example where the group got assigned Kazakh as their L2 and German as L3, presumably to "console" them. I think they studied both languages from scratch.
2 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

User avatar
IronMike
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2554
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 6:13 am
Location: Northern Virginia
Languages: Studying: Esperanto
Maintaining: nada
Tested:
BCS, 1+L/1+R (DLPT5, 2022)
Russian, 3/3 (DLPT5, 2022) 2+ (OPI, 2022)
German, 2L/1+R (DLPT5, 2021)
Italian, 1L/2R (DLPT IV, 2019)
Esperanto, C1 (KER skriba ekzameno, 2017)
Slovene, 2+L/3R (DLPT II in, yes, 1999)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5189
x 7266
Contact:

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby IronMike » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:05 am

galaxyrocker wrote:I do think we are seeing a trend away from that. My university, for instance, doesn't have the language requirement for engineers or business majors. So I do think we're seeing a trend where universities no longer view themselves as giving students a well-rounded education, but instead provide specialized job training (which saddens me, but that's a different story), and I suspect that we'll slowly start to see language requirements fade out.

My experience as a parent paying tuition to state schools is different from this. In fact two of my kids wish they could simply take classes in their majors. Granted, we homeschooled our kids for the majority of their schooling, and gave them a good, well-rounded education in the classical liberal arts. It is anecdotal, but funny that my kids take the mandatory classes and in many cases are the only ones in their class who has already read the novels, poems, and plays assigned (in the case of English classes) or already have enough proficiency to walk into a junior-level Russian class as first semester freshmen (dad bragging here).

I'm for an improved secondary education in the U.S., with an option for those who do not want to go to college. Now, all students are on the college track whether they want to be or not. 30+ years ago when I went to high school in a large metroplex in Texas, you had an option in 11th and 12th grade to do vocational-technical. You had the mandatory classes in the mornings, then in the afternoons you went to vo-tech classes in your chosen career field. In 12th grade you started working/apprenticing in the afternoons. (At my 10-year reunion in '95, at least two of my vo-tech classmates already owned their own businesses and were doing quite well. That number tripled at the 20-year.)

My wife recently read The Case Against Education by Caplan. She recommends it highly as a book that broaches verboten topics in American education. The subtitle says it all: Why the education system is a waste of time and money. ;)
4 x
You're not a C1 (or B1 or whatever) if you haven't tested.
CEFR --> ILR/DLPT equivalencies
My swimming life.
My reading life.

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4988
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17753

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:17 am

Serpent wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Around here, B2 tends to be the demanded entry level to study popular languages, B1 at some very remote universities without much of a reputation (I have a backup plan requiring B1 German :-D ). Of course the teaching degrees are much less difficult than the philology or translation ones (I looked at the plans rather carefully), but the competition is still big. Faculties offering degrees in English, German, French, or Spanish can choose their students from a large crowd. The less popular languages have different entry requirements of course.
I'm a bit late but wow :D
Here it's only a requirement for English. I mean you certainly are in a better position if you speak a FIGS language but you don't have to, not even at the prestigious university I failed to graduate from. I know someone who applied and got a decent score in English, Russian and the third exam (I forgot which one, but probably history or IT). When applying, she listed English and French under the languages she'd studied, despite not liking French... And she ended up in the French group, presumably just based on that.

On the flip side, there's no control over what language you "get" in addition to English. It's largely sponsored by the state, so at the translation department they learn all sorts of cool languages like Finnish, Dutch, Farsi, Kazakh*... My friend was part of an experiment where they studied Armenian as a free but obligatory third foreign language - usually the third one was paid and optional, so you could choose anything that was offered.
*I know at least one example where the group got assigned Kazakh as their L2 and German as L3, presumably to "console" them. I think they studied both languages from scratch.


Here,each language is basically a separate degree, with some subjects being common to them. So, you are applying to get to French philology and either you get accepted or not. To German translation. To Russian teaching. It also depends on the faculty, where do you want to study.

For example, a friend recently got to Dutch. Not automatically, it was one of the applications he sent. He didn't get to politology. He didn't get to German, despite having finished a fully bilingual highschool, with subjects in German, as there were other requirements too. For Dutch, he didn't need any entry level in the language itself. He fulfilled the requirements, was chosen, and hopefully, he'll love it in the end.

Usually, it is around B2 for the popular languages, sometimes B1, but you need to take into account the competition. Sometimes, a bit worse level suffices, just barely fulfilling the requirement. Sometimes, it is fiercer.
0 x

User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6094
Contact:

Re: Only 7% of College Students Enrolled in a Language?

Postby tarvos » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:46 am

I'm for an improved secondary education in the U.S., with an option for those who do not want to go to college. Now, all students are on the college track whether they want to be or not. 30+ years ago when I went to high school in a large metroplex in Texas, you had an option in 11th and 12th grade to do vocational-technical. You had the mandatory classes in the mornings, then in the afternoons you went to vo-tech classes in your chosen career field. In 12th grade you started working/apprenticing in the afternoons. (At my 10-year reunion in '95, at least two of my vo-tech classmates already owned their own businesses and were doing quite well. That number tripled at the 20-year.)


This sort of stuff exists in tiered education systems, such as in the Netherlands and Germany.
2 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests