Romance languages and switching to English

[aravinda]

I remember many years ago torturing a poor train station worker for 20 minutes over a ticket mix-up with my A2 Japanese until he finally begged "can we please speak in English now?" I was feeling generous, so I agreed ... but only because I was A2 and had almost no idea what he was saying otherwise.

That's the spirit!

[Speakeasy]

Yes, you are quite correct. The United Kingdom played absolutely no part in the process. However, although the process of the Anglicisation of Western Europe (that is, its adoption as a lingua franca) was progressive, it was not part of a design and it was not deliberate; rather, it was somewhat accidental.

Hey Speakeasy, sure you don’t have to convince me! I don’t believe it was deliberate or have any conspiracy theories on this matter. Are you confusing me with another Australian participating in this thread? Anyway, everything you say plus I think American movies, tv, music and computer games. Cheers!

Bonjour, mon ami! When I read your post, wherein you suggested that it was American, and not British, influence that brought about the use of English the lingua franca in Western Europe, I thought that it might be useful to describe how this actually came about. As I was typing madly away, it occured to me that some readers might respond by suggesting that the Marshall Plan and NATO were part of a "master plan" to make English the dominant language in Western Europe and elsewhere. So, as I finished typing, I inserted the comment (highlighted in blue above) hoping to forestall such a debate. However, while it was tagged onto my reply to your post, it was most definitely not directed at you.

As a brief continuation of my explanation of how much influence the American presence in Western Europe had on the language and culture, I would underscore that even the British did not escape, as exemplified by the wartime expression "they're overpaid, oversexed, and over here!" In the case of Western Europe, the there were well over a million Americans wandering about, their pockets bulging with cash, in a war-stricken economy that remained under official rationning for more than a decade after the end of the war. In these conditions, it is quite understandable that many of the locals would be quite eager to display an elevated level of hospitality by learning to speak the language of their benefactors.

We will return, now, to our regular programming.

[tarvos]

If S_allard basically tell us to talk to people only after we get to the C levels, in order not to annoy them (and there is a grain of truth to this, despite my reservations), I add : vast majority of books I've ever read were much more interesting than vast majority of people I've ever met anyways. (half joking now) so, it is up to us to improve.

Unfortunately some people could have a C2 in eloquence, French and pedagogy and still be bitterly awful to talk to.

[Cavesa]

Let's not forget that the English dominance is not just business driven. If it was, than the postwar situation couldn't have grown to such proportions, especially outside of Europe.

The main tools are Hollywood and the internet. These are the two. The american movies and tv series have the best marketing on the planet. Cinemas all over the world are showing mostly american movies, with a few of the local production, and very rarely others. This is not caused by superior quality of all the american movies, but by marketing. Internet also used to be exclusively in English, with other languages catching up very late and only to limited extend so far.

The US (and to some extent other anglophone countries) are known for their ego. Sometimes too big. But it has a consequence for the learners, which is rather pleasant. An English native expects you to be able to communicate in the language, they expect you to have tons of experience with it. Prejudice is mostly an individual issue and it doesn't lead to arrogantly dismissing foreigners' skills. That is very important, not just the low proficiency of the anglophone populations in other languages.

The German natives are very proud too, and they expect the same within the region. The language doesn't conquer through fun, no. But there is a lot of money included, and history, as German had been the dominant language in the region for centuries. German natives don't have much of a problem with foreigners speaking the language, as they expect people to learn it, and for logical reasons.

The romance language natives have completely lost confidence. There are lots of modern books, movies, tv series, and similar stuff being produced in the countries with romance languages as the official ones. Yet, they are somehow inadequately represented abroad, due to bad marketing. Yes, AF, Cervantes, and Italian and Portuguese centers of similar type are trying. But you cannot fight lots of money in the public+private fun business from the US, and lesser extent UK, and yet lesser extent the rest of the countries. A movie festival in three cities in a country cannot compete with the whole year of american production in the cinemas.

The romance language natives, in general, seem to lack the confidence. They don't believe in advanced learners, because they don't see any value in doing such a thing as learning their language. Spanish might be an exception, as having a continent backing you up is different, and the hispanophone culture has been expanding really rapidly during the last ten or even more years. Spanish natives can imagine people wanting to speak the language.

French or Italian natives, as is the experience of several people on this thread, are much more likely to ask why would anyone learn their language. This is a problem. This question appears even in rather absurd situations. The French arrogance about switching has a part of the roots here, in my opinion. it is weird, as one wouldn't expect it from such big languages. It is understandable in Czech. If I wasn't a native, I wouldn't learn it. Yet, I respect the choice made by others, whatever their reason is.

It sometimes feels as if the French were trying to suggest I stopped wasting time on their language, perhaps their intentions are good. But it is rather late after several years. And why would anyone try to criticise someone else's harmless decision this way, trying to correct them, is beyond my comprehension

[Speakeasy]

... The main tools are Hollywood and the internet. These are the two. The american movies and tv series have the best marketing on the planet. Cinemas all over the world are showing mostly american movies, with a few of the local production, and very rarely others. This is not caused by superior quality of all the american movies, but by marketing. Internet also used to be exclusively in English, with other languages catching up very late and only to limited extend so far...

While I would not deny the influence of American film and television, we should bear in mind that most of these products were distributed as “dubbed” versions. As to the influence of the Internet, English (under American influence) had already become the de facto lingua franca of Western Europe, the Internet was merely the “coup de grace.”

... The US (and to some extent other anglophone countries) are known for their ego. Sometimes too big.

Please, oh please, let us not descend to this level of unfounded, generalized, misrepresentation of an entire people! Ultimately, the Americans chose the carrot, the Russians chose the stick.

[rdearman]

OK, Let's all get back to languages.

I had a long conversation at lunchtime with one of my new French colleagues, I switched to French and she spoke to me the entire time, until someone else sat with us and we switched back to English as a curtsey to them. So, not everyone switches, although my French is much better than it was previously, so that might be a factor. It wasn't too painful for her to speak with me.

[tarvos]

Spanish natives can imagine people wanting to speak the language.

I went to the hospital and did psychotherapy in Spanish. It was expected I speak Spanish there.

[Cavesa]

... The main tools are Hollywood and the internet. These are the two. The american movies and tv series have the best marketing on the planet. Cinemas all over the world are showing mostly american movies, with a few of the local production, and very rarely others. This is not caused by superior quality of all the american movies, but by marketing. Internet also used to be exclusively in English, with other languages catching up very late and only to limited extend so far...

While I would not deny the influence of American film and television, we should bear in mind that most of these products were distributed as “dubbed” versions. As to the influence of the Internet, English (under American influence) had already become the de facto lingua franca of Western Europe, the Internet was merely the “coup de grace.”

Depends on the generation we are talking about, and it is overall agreed on, that the younger people are much more influenced than the older ones. With the borderline young-old moving up, as time goes. It starts in the cinemas, where dubbings used to be the norm. But nowadays, both dubbing and subtitles are being offered (in France too). And watching movies and tv series moved largely to the internet. Bot thanks to legal services, and even more thanks to the pirate sites (well, the business wouldn't be so pushed to finally make services like Netflix, if it weren't for the pirate sites' popularity). On the internet, the young generation uses the subtitles. The original sound is more and more popular.

It may gave been the coup de grace in several selected countries. But even in those ones, I think you underestimate its importance. In the rest of Europe, it was really the key. And even if you look at it as just the last nail to the coffin, you cannot deny its effect on the overall level of English among foreigners, compared to the other languages.

... The US (and to some extent other anglophone countries) are known for their ego. Sometimes too big.

Please, oh please, let us not descend to this level of unfounded, generalized, misrepresentation of an entire people! Ultimately, the Americans chose the carrot, the Russians chose the stick.

Perhaps I should have used the word confidence. But still, I have yet to find an English native telling me "Oh, and why are you learning English?" or "Hmm, perhaps you should have learnt German instead, as those are your neighbours." or "how did you learn English so well?". They just expect people worldwide to do it. Even to a too wide extent, that's probably why I automatically chose the word ego.

You may feel it is a bit too much of generalisation. Or perhaps you, as a native, simply cannot imagine at all what it is like to be an English learner, and the difference in this role from being a learner of another language. The pressure is huge.

And when it comes to ESL, there is both the carrot and the stick. And the stick is pretty huge these days. Again, it may not look so to a native, but it certainly is so. We may even argue that the "Americans choose the carrot, the Russian chose the stick" is a huge unfounded, generalized, misinterpration of an entire people When it comes to the romance languages, both the carrot and the stick look insignificant, when compared.

[Cavesa]

OK, Let's all get back to languages.

I had a long conversation at lunchtime with one of my new French colleagues, I switched to French and she spoke to me the entire time, until someone else sat with us and we switched back to English as a curtsey to them. So, not everyone switches, although my French is much better than it was previously, so that might be a factor. It wasn't too painful for her to speak with me.

I never said everyone switches.

This is a whole thread about anecdotal evidence, which is actually the only thing that matters in the real life. And I am just saying that based on my anecdotal evidence with dozens and dozens of people, the French native ones tend to do this more often than the Spanish ones. And much more often than the German or English ones. It is not based on one experience, even though a few stand out. Like the person who refused to talk to me in French, despite her not speaking Spanish in Spain, simply wanting English, the language I don't particularly like and definitely don't need to practice (before someone catches this: that doesn't mean perfection. that just means having reached my goals). Or the person insisting on using English even in a group of French natives and me. Or those tons of people switching just because they heard my family speaking Czech.

[Speakeasy]

... And when it comes to ESL, there is both the carrot and the stick. And the stick is pretty huge these days...

There is no stick, you are simply deprived of the carrot, surely you recognize the difference.

The Americans were not required to make even the slightest effort at coercing the locals into learning English. "You don’t want to serve me in my language? That’s fine, I’ll find someone who does!"

It’s like raising a child, you don’t have to use corporal punishment, you need only demonstrate to them that there are consequences for failing to conform to your wishes.

EDITED:
Expansion of the text.