Romance languages and switching to English

[Cavesa]

Originally from: Learning languages as a 'real' hobby
-Serpent

2.Partial dominance is real. French is a particularly good example, as many natives refuse to talk to foreigners in French, automatically dismissing their attempts (including advanced learners). If you want a language that is awesome for travelling in Europe, choose a different one.

Sorry if I ignore the original post and only comment this sentence of you, @Cavesa, but I don't understand your statement.
In my experience, in France most of the people speak only French (same with the French speakers of Belgium). Speaking English with them would be rather pointless.
Second: there are enough French people that can actually speak English but refuse to do so and keep speaking French even to the foreigners that can't speak any French. They believe that the tourists should make an attempt to learn French if they go to France.
Then there are the people that only want to speak English with foreigners, dismissing their attempts.
But even though, they are much less than what you think.
I had all these experiences, having met a lot of French people and having travelled in France and Belgium a bunch of times. I had fluent speakers of English being very pleased that they could communicate in their native language with me, unfriendly people that forced me to communicate in French in a moment I was under pressure and used English just to share the same difficulties, other unfriendly people that answered me back that they don't speak Italian. Everything exists.

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I also had Italians speaking to me in A1 German and commenting between each others how good my Italian was.

As I already wrote many times: my experience is very different and some of the forum members shared similar experience. It is based on approximately 15 short stays and one stay of 6 months in France. The same experience was reported by a few forum members, but also people I meet in the real life.

While your experience was probably common some time ago, it is different now. Many French speakers automatically use English and some insist on it, despite me showing my abilities. And despite their English being significantly worse than my French (which is now almost always the case).

It used to be very common and frustrating when I was B2. I was very good for that level, due to my "use it all" attitude. But still, people kept using the damn English. Including a situation, where a group of natives accepted me as a normal person, used French, but one guy kept using English and at times annoyingly tried to translate for me.

At C2, it still happens with my family, no matter how absurd it is. Fortunately, it happens rather rarely, as I learnt to be much more assertive and don't care about their judgement. This attitude is just as important as the skills, perhaps even more. When I am somewhere with my family, which is obviously foreign, they still start from English and some try to stick to it, despite it being obvious my father doesn't understand that either.

When I am alone, it almost doesn't happen, but I still faced some weird situations during my Erasmus stay.

There are still individuals who insist on English after my answers in rench, and clearly (verbally and nonverbally) assume that it is cute I speak "un petit peu français" but still continue in English. Of course there is the opposite too, rather stereotypical people, but those are rather rare (for example a policeman writing the report on my stolen bag, that one was also such a stereotypical cop you could imagine him in all the jokes). And the situations in which this happens are a bit less accessible.

This is something extremely different from my other languages. In Spanish, German, or Italian, I could speak as soon as I wanted. Not even very weak skills (such as my Neanderthalisch) were an obstacle. I spoke the language of the country, my skills were sufficient for the given situation, so they continued in the same language.

This "the French speak only French and find English offensive" stereotype is not true anymore. People already understand that learning Swedish might be frustrating due to natives possibly not letting you use it, quite everyone has been warned, and we make an informed decision with this fact on mind. A Swedish learner knows they'll need to be extra good and assertive to win their practice. When it comes to French, first hand experience is being dismissed because it is different from the stereotype. So, learners start the language thinking how useful it will be for travelling, and later are disappointed, as their skills are not only unnecessary (the whole tourist industry in France uses English), but also not taken seriously. That is a very frustrating discovery after all the efforts and investments, especially for someone learning the language primarily for its usefulness during travels.

That's why I wholeheartedly recommend people to consider other choices too, before they start investing their time, efforts, and money. If you want a language that definitely adds value even to the simplest tourism experience, if you want a language natives will like to use with you instead of English, consider various choices. If you want to access media of any kind in the language, than go for it, French is great. If you just like the language and wish to learn it, enjoy. But if the feeling of accomplishment from using the language during traveling is important to you (and let's face it, it is one of the principal motivations among learners outside this forum), French is a tricky choice.

[Cavesa]

For the OP,
don't overthink. Do what you find nice. If you don't find it nice, don't do it.
If your highest dream is becoming fluent in Klingon, do it and dismiss all the people that laugh at you. If it makes you happy it is worth doing it. If you think that you should learn Spanish or Chinese or Russian just because they are important languages, find something more fulfilling to do.

As a background I'd say that my motives to learn languages are basically for traveling and maybe for living abroad, and I think the problem is that I love doing this only when it comes to this purpose (to the fact that I'm actually going to use the language), and not because I love languages in general, which makes this 'hobby' to be dependent.
For example, I thought about an imaginary situation, in which the whole world would speak in one language (English let's say), and in this case my French learning becomes insignificant for me, because of its "disappearance", as it used for me as a tool for traveling and not something I really love by itself no matter what, so eventually it turned out that all my studies have become a waste of time for me.

The OP does not just find a language nice. Their attitude is a pragmatic and legitimate one. With clearly defined goal and purpose. Unlike many of us (like me), they don't struggle with the opinion of others that "learning a language just because it is fun is nonsense", they share this attitude.

And that is why I am warning them about French. Their chosen language, their attitude, and their goal simply don't match well in today's world.

If the choosing criteria are: lots of travelling opportunities, talking to natives (mostly accidentally encountered natives, not specific situations like paying a tutor), relative ease of learning and getting the tools to do it, I'd say Spanish, Italian, German, or Russian are much better options.

[Tristano]

Hi @Cavesa, I see that we're touching a weak point here. It looks like your negative experiences are overpowering the positive ones.

I am sorry to notice that I generated a quite emotional response. I didn't intend in any way to offend you or dismiss your experience. Not only you're one of the forum members that I appreciate the most, your level of French is way above mine and your experiences in the French country are also more than mine.

That said, my last experience in France was two years ago, the day after the attack at Charlie Hebdo, in Paris. I could speak with many French colleagues and could enrich my opinion with theirs. I anyway don't doubt that a completely different experience, like yours, be possible.

Then remains a question, how comes this discrepancy? I wouldn't attribute it to changes in time, as two years don't seem enough to deeply alter the situation. I am more suspicious about another variable, the environment.

I understand you are a student, high educated, my guess is that also the people you hang with share similar traits. It can't surprise that in a circle of high educated people practically everyone speaks English, or that a certain competition exists.

I am likely ten years older than you so it is possible that my circle belonged to a different generation.

Anyway, I live in a country that is popular for the high command of English of its inhabitants (the Netherlands). So it is impossible to speak Dutch because everyone is C2 in English, right? Wrong. It turns out that it is highly dependant by where you are. Here where I live now most of the people have a very bad to non-existing command of English, with few exceptions. There are also almost no foreigners.

France is big, much bigger than the Netherlands. I think that if you go outside tourists and student hubs the situation can be different. The stereotypical police man (I had to jiggle a lot for this one, lol) is a good example of average person, and the average people are mostly in majority.

About the OP, I just mean that he doesn't need to pursue ideals or virtues when it comes to language learning. If it satisfies a need, it's good to do. His reasons are perfectly legit.

[Cavesa]

That said, my last experience in France was two years ago, the day after the attack at Charlie Hebdo, in Paris. I could speak with many French colleagues and could enrich my opinion with theirs. I anyway don't doubt that a completely different experience, like yours, be possible.

That is a rather specific situation and different from what is the OP talking about. In professional setting, where you come in a situation requiring French, that is different. I didn't have this problem in hospitals at all either, except for a few annoying notes. But outside of that, it was different. People simply assumed I would be incompetent. On my own, I can easily prove the opposite and vast majority understands after that. A few just go on and are very unpleasant about it and make the communication harder. With my family, it becomes harder, as they expect the best skills from the middle aged man, not from a young woman (and my dad happens to be monolingual).

I understand you are a student, high educated, my guess is that also the people you hang with share similar traits. It can't surprise that in a circle of high educated people practically everyone speaks English, or that a certain competition exists.

I am likely ten years older than you so it is possible that my circle belonged to a different generation.

No, my social circles are not the problem at all. I have such experience with various people.

Our age is partially to blame. I think it may be true that my generation is simply too damaged by all the English language propaganda. But even the level of the young people at universities, which we expect to be better than that of people ten or more years older, is not that stellar. Our age difference matters differently: you get more respect than I do. It happens in various areas of life too. I get often disrespected, even when my experience in a particular area is not small.

I'm sorry about sounding so annoyed, but this is something people have been lecturing me on too many times.

Anyway, I live in a country that is popular for the high command of English of its inhabitants (the Netherlands). So it is impossible to speak Dutch because everyone is C2 in English, right? Wrong. It turns out that it is highly dependant by where you are. Here where I live now most of the people have a very bad to non-existing command of English, with few exceptions. There are also almost no foreigners.

I've seen people around A2 (at most) insist on French. It was making the communication really difficult. So no, people don't have to be awesome. In one case, I was even openly told "but English is the international language" and the person was very arrogant. Many others simply don't take it like that. They just cannot see French is going to be much easier to use than their weak skills in a language that isn't my native one either, so it is not such a welcoming gesture anyways.

France is big, much bigger than the Netherlands. I think that if you go outside tourists and student hubs the situation can be different. The stereotypical police man (I had to jiggle a lot for this one, lol) is a good example of average person, and the average people are mostly in majority.

The probability is better, true, but it is still not that simple. As I said, really good skills in English are not a prerequisite, so this happens even in small places. Yes, it is much smaller problem than in places like Paris, but it is still a very real issue.

About the OP, I just mean that he doesn't need to pursue ideals or virtues when it comes to language learning. If it satisfies a need, it's good to do. His reasons are perfectly legit.

Their reasons are good. Just unless their goal is to travel specifically to francophone countries, I think other languages would fit the expectations better.

[Serpent]

@Tristano do you think it's possible that they are more willing to speak French with you because you're Italian?

@Cavesa I don't understand how I manage to find so many Frenchmen that don't speak English If it wasn't for my refusal to learn it I would've probably picked up a lot But even understanding it thanks to Spanish/Italian/Latin was extremely helpful.

[Iversen]

I have visited France a lot of times from 1972 onwards to today, and during all that time I have only ONCE met an idiot at the ticket counter in the Aquarium in Montpellier who continued to speak English to me "because I had an accent" - and of course I continued to speak French to him, haha. I may start late to speak a new language to native speakers of that language, but once I have decided that I can do it then I don't budge - they'll get the whole caboodle in whatever language it is, whether they want it or not.

But even though I probably do have an accent, French isn't one of my worst languages. I find it more interesting that in those cases where I have talked in Dutch to native speakers in Flanders and the Netherlands and Suriname and a few other places they have generally answered me in Dutch. A couple of years ago I visited the Netherlands around New Year, and that was my first monolingual Dutch holiday. Since then I have been there a few times on shorter trips, and I have in a few cases chosen to speak English myself - like in the Suriname consulate in Amsterdam, where I was more interested in getting a visum than in demonstrating my level in Dutch. In Eindhoven I answered by mistake in English when the lady at the reception in my hotel spoke English to me, and then we just carried on in that language until I checked out - and then I said in the very best Dutch I could muster that I had had a fine time in their hotel, and that Eindhoven wasn't nearly as irrelevant to tourists as most travellers (and guidebooks) think, and I think she took it nicely.

I got even answers in Greek when I formulated something in my rudimentary Dhimotiki the last couple of days of my stay in Thessaloniki last year, which is even more surprising given my dismal level.

There may be an age problem (because young people are supposed to prefer 'the international language' English), but being able to carry a full conversation through without too many circumlocutions and ahem's PLUS the attitude that you intend to do so has probably saved me from a number of attempts to turn to English. It has also saved me from having to use some of the rude answers I have ready if the need to use them should arise...

[leosmith]

2.Partial dominance is real. French is a particularly good example, as many natives refuse to talk to foreigners in French, automatically dismissing their attempts (including advanced learners). If you want a language that is awesome for travelling in Europe, choose a different one.

No offense, but this certainly hasn't been my experience.

In France almost everyone spoke French with me, and some expressed gratitude that I learned their language, even though my level wasn't that great (intermediate). French is the default language, and unless you can't get your point across, it's going to be pretty rare that natives try to switch to another language, even English. In fact the only time I had to switch to English was when I tried to buy a sandwich from a street vendor. We didn't understand each other. So he looked at me and listed off 2 or 3 languages, one of which was "English", and I said "yeah - English!" We made the transaction, and it turns out that he was from Morroco, and wasn't too good at French. The last time I was in France was 2011. I doubt this aspect has changed much in 7 years, but maybe I'm wrong.

Outside of France it's a bit different. Most tourists I've met are used to communicating in English, and it's sometimes a bit strange to try to change to French. I'm in Thailand now, so I address everyone in Thai, haha. I remember a few years back helping a French lady and her daughter talk to a Thai about an elephant ride. This was before I spoke French (2008?). I translated from Thai to a mixture of English and a few words of French. Even then she had some difficulties, and she kept trying to get me to switch to French. She worked it out eventually though, and I heard her speaking perfectly acceptable broken English when I finally walked away. She really wanted that French though.

[Tristano]

@Cavesa, I understand very well your reason and your situations. I want only to briefly reply to a couple of things:

That is a rather specific situation and different from what is the OP talking about. In professional setting, where you come in a situation requiring French, that is different.
[\quote]

It wasn't requiring French. They were all B1 to C1 in French. I was around B2 in French, but my English was better. They didn't have any reasons to speak French with me, beside finding it nice to do. I work in the software engineering sector, where it is basically impossible not to have a knowledge of English.

Our age difference matters differently: you get more respect than I do. It happens in various areas of life too. I get often disrespected, even when my experience in a particular area is not small.

I can't judge about it. Getting respect is a very complex topic, and the age is only one of the variables. Other variables are: being assertive, confident, showing knowledge. As an Italian, where saying "I'm good" at something it means to be immediately seen as arrogant, I still struggle in the Netherlands because if you say that you are not that good people actually think that you are not good. Quite messed up, isn't it? I guess France is more similar to Italy than to The Netherlands.
Age matters in certain cultures more than in others, and it has been said to me that France at this regard is very similar to Italy, where indeed having a beard and some grey hair automatically means some more authority. Respect is also perceived differently from different people, so again, I can't agree nor disagree at the purpose, without knowing you as a person in depth.

Did you take it personally if someone refuse to speak French with it? I think it says more about him that it says about you. You are good at it, and you know it.

[Tristano]

@Tristano do you think it's possible that they are more willing to speak French with you because you're Italian?

I don't know. I can't find a reason why this should make a difference. Italians are a bit of a Shrödinger learners of French, that either can't speak it at all and their accent is laughable at or it is too easy because Italian is close to French. So no idea

[Serpent]

It's not really about your level or skill but what natives assume about it
And gender is another factor affecting respect of course.