Romance languages and switching to English

[nooj]

Indeed, the USA is special. It is an exceptional country in many respects!

What do you think about the UK? Given its proximity to the mainland, you would think that the need for foreign language education is much more pressing, and yet the figures I've seen show rather woeful results.

[rdearman]

OK, twice now I've gently reminded people that we don't talk about politics, so now I'm going to be blunt. Please stop making sweeping generalisations and statements about other countries and people. The topic of this thread is "Romance languages and switching to English", not the educational requirements of USA, UK, France or other countries. It isn't about factors leading to English dominance after WWII. In short all of that off-topic stuff is derailing the thread and moving more and more into political opinion. So knock it off.

I hope that I've been clear?

[aokoye]

OK, twice now I've gently reminded people that we don't talk about politics, so now I'm going to be blunt. Please stop making sweeping generalisations and statements about other countries and people. The topic of this thread is "Romance languages and switching to English", not the educational requirements of USA, UK, France or other countries. It isn't about factors leading to English dominance after WWII. In short all of that off-topic stuff is derailing the thread and moving more and more into political opinion. So knock it off.

I hope that I've been clear?

You actually haven't been super clear though part of that could be due to my apparent insomnia. I say that because it seems like educational requirements, as it relates to foreign language classes, at least in terms of Latin America, France, Spain, Portugal, and Italy (among other countries), is actually very much related to whether or not someone may or may not switch from a Romance language to English. Additionally isn't the statement, "speakers or romance languages switch to English" a sweeping generalization in and of itself?

In an attempt to distill this further, is what you're actually wanting a discussion that is essentially, "this is what I do when people switch from a romance language to English" and/or stories that don't involve entire communities of people (something like, "I lived in Panama for three months and everyone there switches to English" is still a sweeping generalization as opposed to, "The people in my university classes in Panama would always switch to English with me even though I did all of my work and participated using Spanish" which is not)?

[rdearman]

OK, twice now I've gently reminded people that we don't talk about politics, so now I'm going to be blunt. Please stop making sweeping generalisations and statements about other countries and people. The topic of this thread is "Romance languages and switching to English", not the educational requirements of USA, UK, France or other countries. It isn't about factors leading to English dominance after WWII. In short all of that off-topic stuff is derailing the thread and moving more and more into political opinion. So knock it off.

I hope that I've been clear?

You actually haven't been super clear though part of that could be due to my apparent insomnia. I say that because it seems like educational requirements, as it relates to foreign language classes, at least in terms of Latin America, France, Spain, Portugal, and Italy (among other countries), is actually very much related to whether or not someone may or may not switch from a Romance language to English. Additionally isn't the statement, "speakers or romance languages switch to English" a sweeping generalization in and of itself?

In an attempt to distill this further, is what you're actually wanting a discussion that is essentially, "this is what I do when people switch from a romance language to English" and/or stories that don't involve entire communities of people (something like, "I lived in Panama for three months and everyone there switches to English" is still a sweeping generalization as opposed to, "The people in my university classes in Panama would always switch to English with me even though I did all of my work and participated using Spanish" which is not)?

OK, I didn't want to have to go into great detail. I figured people could work out the parts which were language related. My objection was more aligned with you. I will give some examples.

What do you think about the UK? Given its proximity to the mainland, you would think that the need for foreign language education is much more pressing, and yet the figures I've seen show rather woeful results.

They already speak English in the UK, it isn't a romance language and it is largely irrelevant what language learning they get since it has no impact on someone in Italian speaking English to an American. You are correct that the educational institutions on non-English speaking countries may bear some relevance.

("hey, we need to hire fifteen people for x job, which doesn't require a lot of skills, but let's demand B2 English, otherwise the number of candidates will be too big to handle") [...] consider that, yes, command of the language is absolutely superfluous to that particular job.

Job requirements aren't really relevant to the discussion about switching.

Note to the Moderators: the above was not a political statement, it was a description of how a language, uncommon to any of the local peoples, became their lingua franca, not by conquest, but by economic attraction.

This isn't relevant to the topic, and the entire post was a political statement, regardless of the note at the end.

History lesson: the United Kingdom was never a continental power and, even at the height of the power of the British Empire, the English language had little, if any, influence on the European continent.

History lesson? What does this have to do with romance speakers switching to English? None, it was simply part of an ongoing sub-theme of politics mingled in with languages.

Really, while English is parasiting on the science world everywhere, I would say it is still held back by the local languages, more than various other fields.

A controversial statement which was going to make people kick off, and had nothing to do with people switching to English.

I think this thread has become too political and overstepped forum rules.

Even non-moderators noticed the political derailing.

There were two posts which were deleted by moderators because they were wholly 100% political with no attempt made at being even slightly related to languages.

This is a difficult thread to moderate because you are correct there were many values points which did relate to the topic, but could be political. So I just wanted to ask everyone to think before posting if what they are saying is really relevant to the thread or not.

[emk]

Let me just concur with rdearman here.

I hope that I've been clear?

You actually haven't been super clear though part of that could be due to my apparent insomnia. I say that because it seems like educational requirements, as it relates to foreign language classes, at least in terms of Latin America, France, Spain, Portugal, and Italy (among other countries), is actually very much related to whether or not someone may or may not switch from a Romance language to English.

Sorry, it looks like there's some confusion. The moderators have accidentally been stepping on each other's toes in this thread—some of us deleted a couple of political comments, and rdearman responded to some of the comments that were deleted. We apologize for the confusion, and we'll sort this out.

In particular, I'd like to agree with your remarks here:

Given that the US is so large I find it really amusing if not dismaying, that people who aren't from or haven't spent large amounts of time in the US are so wont to make generalizations, in terms of personality, about people from the US. I'm even more bemused about generalizations about anglophone countries because that that point you're making assumptions about 519,450,806 people and that's only counting inner circle anglophone countries.

Exactly. But this isn't just about the US. The moderators take a dim view of any sweeping generalizations about people in any country. In my personal experience, people are just people, pretty much everywhere. And one of the most interesting things about learning foreign languages is that you can actually talk to people in other countries, and you can recognize that they're normal humans. You don't have to settle for clichéd stereotypes; you can go direct to the source.

And at the same time, there's no point in learning languages if you're just going to go to other countries, and insult them with ridiculous generalizations. Now, that's not to say that all Americans are wonderful, or that all French people are wonderful. The are good people and terrible people everywhere. Similarly, there are foodies in every country, and there are people who are happy eating sandwiches made from meat sludge. (Do not ask me about the documentary on French airport sandwiches I watched.) There are people who love art films, and people who love brainless comedies with lots of car chases.

Which brings me to this thread, and why it has been receiving enough moderator attention for us to step on each other's toes. So I'm going to take the unusual step of quoting from a deleted post:

Any thought of 'more sophisticated French people' goes out the bloody window when you go read the comment section of Le Figaro!

First of all, let's just say that I agree that if I were a moderator of the comment section at Le Figaro last year, I would have been handing out bans left and right. Or maybe I would have just closed it down, like a lot of US papers have done with their comment sections. But one of the reasons we're so opposed politics on this forum is we don't want this forum to turn into the comments section of Le Figaro. Politics is the natural enemy of forums, and we have always taken a hard line against it, both here and at HTLAL, going back over a decade. This is not an open public forum, this is a private community with specific rules and expectations. We try not to be draconian about it, but the rules do exist.

Personally, I find the whole stereotype of "more sophisticated French people" to typically be a sign that somebody still thinks of a France as some weird kind of fantasy land, instead of an actual country filled with actual people. It's a really common attitude in beginner and intermediate French classes. Don't get me wrong; I love France. But just like anywhere else, some French people are "sophisticated" (however you measure it), and some of them like their pétanque, foot and beer, and there's nothing wrong with that. The sooner language learners realize this, the less likely they are to suffer brutal disillusionment when their fantasies are shattered.

Also, nooj, you have been officially warned that any further political arguments may result in a suspension or a ban from the forum. We've already spent a disproportionate amount of time explaining the rules to you. The next step is typically a suspension or a ban, so please think twice before discussing politics (in any way) or making sweeping generalizations about people in other countries. Yes, this means that you now have less leeway in these matters than other posters. We prefer to enforce the rules by explaining them and by encouraging people to follow them willingly, but we'll only explain the rules so many times. So please just try to avoid political arguments entirely.

[aokoye]

OK, I didn't want to have to go into great detail. I figured people could work out the parts which were language related. My objection was more aligned with you. I will give some examples.....

This is a difficult thread to moderate because you are correct there were many values points which did relate to the topic, but could be political. So I just wanted to ask everyone to think before posting if what they are saying is really relevant to the thread or not.

To be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with most of what you and subsequently emk were saying. I was just asking for clarification because while I agree that what you quoted is on topic, there is also quite a lot of grey area. Hence my example about why, "the educational requirements of USA, UK, France or other countries" can very much be relevant to this thread. I can spell that out further but I'd prefer not to.

Even non-moderators noticed the political derailing.

Yeah I did too, I flagged a post two or three days ago and said as such.

edit: I should have also added at this earlier - I wasn't trying to be purposefully obtuse with any of what I wrote.

[tarvos]

(not all, there are great examples such as Frisian as tarvos pointed out) to have much of a status at all. Dare I say it, I think the recent story of Catalan proves to some point why France will not promote local languages, change their constitution and rectify the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages. Frisians, as tarvos pointed out, are not likely to suddenly call for independence.(not all, there are great examples such as Frisian as tarvos pointed out) to have much of a status at all. Dare I say it, I think the recent story of Catalan proves to some point why France will not promote local languages, change their constitution and rectify the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages. Frisians, as tarvos pointed out, are not likely to suddenly call for independence.

Probably not - they don't have any political history of being oppressed. There is a minority movement there but it has zero traction. And I don't think most Frisians give a hoot.

They still might switch to English though.

[reineke]

The French are the 'worst at English in the EU'

With a score of just 52.68 France ranked just below both Indonesia and its neighbour Italy for English proficiency...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theloc ... -in-eu/amp

The most recent ranking:

France has overtaken Italy and is now just behind Spain! All three countries are rated as moderately proficient.

https://www.ef.co.uk/epi/

[Xenops]

The French are the 'worst at English in the EU'

With a score of just 52.68 France ranked just below both Indonesia and its neighbour Italy for English proficiency...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theloc ... -in-eu/amp

The most recent ranking:

France has overtaken Italy and is now just behind Spain! All three countries are rated as moderately proficient.

https://www.ef.co.uk/epi/

I am very confused reineke: I could have sworn you posted a link in the "Languages With The Least Amount of English Speakers"https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7236 thread that had Saudi Arabia ranked at the top, not the bottom. Perhaps you are not only a fox, but a phantom fox as well.

[reineke]

The French are the 'worst at English in the EU'

With a score of just 52.68 France ranked just below both Indonesia and its neighbour Italy for English proficiency...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theloc ... -in-eu/amp

The most recent ranking:

France has overtaken Italy and is now just behind Spain! All three countries are rated as moderately proficient.

https://www.ef.co.uk/epi/

I am very confused reineke: I could have sworn you posted a link in the "Languages With The Least Amount of English Speakers"https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7236 thread that had Saudi Arabia ranked at the top, not the bottom. Perhaps you are not only a fox, but a phantom fox as well.

Saudi Arabia would have been "ranked at the top" in a list featuring countries and languages with the least amount of English speakers. Here the countries are ranked from best to worst.

"Average English proficiency in the Middle East is very low. In most of the Middle Eastern countries.

Eight of the top 10 countries in this year’s index are in Europe. High levels of English proficiency go hand in hand with Europe’s multiculturalism, economic integration, tourism, and mobility – even at a time when some Europeans are questioning their common project and the value of globalization itself.

Conclusions

Every year, countries spend billions to improve their citizens' English proficiency. Mastering a foreign language takes years, if not decades, and there is no one-sizefits-all approach."