Underrated Languages

[tarvos]

Any language is bad if you memorize without understanding.

[geoffw]

Perspective is everything.

I find it interesting that the OP specifically called out Armenian as underrepresented, when you could actually make an argument that it is OVERrepresented. Based on size, modern political prominence, etc., my off the cuff estimate is that it's comparable to languages like Konkani, Mossi, and Sylheti, which most of the world has no idea even exist. And yet language learners all seem to have some awareness of Armenian (see also: Georgian) in large part because of the unique alphabet. (Armenia and Armenians play many significant roles in history, especially of Europe and Asia, but these are not terribly well-known outside of the region.)

Subsequent posters then called out various other languages as seemingly underrepresented, including Sorbian and Australian Aboriginal languages, all of which have a smaller speaking population than a small town. But Sorbian happens to be part of the massively significant Slavic family, while Australian Aboriginal languages as a group carry unique cultural significance for a whole continent. Does that make them more significant than Bengali or Javanese? Philosophize away...

[Cavesa]

I would agree with Geoff that "underrated" depends a lot on perspective and many small languages are "represented enough". But I think that rather than judging most languages as too unimportant, I think it is worth looking at regional languages, that are underrated. Or languages that would make sense learning for a certain group of people, but still are largely ignored.

In general, I would say many of the middle sized languages are underrepresented. For example Polish. How many people learn Polish? It has 55 milions of native speakers, expat communities all over the world, especially in whole Europe and North America, Poland has important business ties to the whole region. It should be a regionally important and often studied language.

Croatian should be a popular language in the Czech Republic, and not only, as basically half the nation moves there during the summer. And it is a similar language. But no, czechs will use broken English instead.¨

I would say Latvian and Lithuanian would deserve more attention from language enthusiasts, but probably not other people.

I think Ukrainian is underrated, in the shadow of Russian.

Basque is a western european example. It is a small language, true. But it is one of the official languages in the autonomous community, which lies in two countries. I would say the low interest in it may be a part of the tension concerning the region, as languages often become symbols of a more general issue and have a lot to do with emotions. I think the underrated aspect here is not economy or political influence. I think that their neighbours are underestimating the importance of getting to know each other as a means to strenghten the cohesion within the two countries.

As far as I know, the chinese and japanese are all learning English obligatorily and another language optionally. I find this focus similar to the problem of czechs often having to learn primarily English, despite living next to the german border. I would expect people in southern Asia to learn other languages of the region often. But it seems not to be the case. Please correct me, if I am mistaken.

However, it is definitely true that languages like Thai are underrated among europeans, who often travel there and many people repeatedly.

Latin is definitely being underrated. It is a dead language, but it really shows our culture and history from a different perspective, it opens the door to a lot terminology from various fields, to lots of literature, to various languages. And looking at our history, some problems were even started by replacing Latin with national languages (for example the history of my university is an extremely good example. Lots of wasted time on fights between German and Czech natives, instead of working together).

[nooj]

Basque is a western european example. It is a small language, true. But it is one of the official languages in the autonomous community, which lies in two countries. I would say the low interest in it may be a part of the tension concerning the region, as languages often become symbols of a more general issue and have a lot to do with emotions. I think the underrated aspect here is not economy or political influence. I think that their neighbours are underestimating the importance of getting to know each other as a means to strenghten the cohesion within the two countries.

Is Basque really underrated? Maybe I'm biased because of my situation but I find heaps of academic references about Basque. It's a linguist's language and all linguists I've talked to have at least heard the name. Especially because there is an insane amount of good linguistic work being done by Basque linguists themselves.

If French people don't learn it, keep in mind that 1) the French don't generally learn any of their regional languages 2) the French Basque Country, unlike their southern counterparts, never underwent heavy industrialisation and so its economy is heavily based around raising animals and agriculture, so is less attractive to outsiders 3) the holdouts of Basque are in remote country towns up in the mountains, whereas outsiders come and flock to places like Bayonne or Biarritz, which further reduces the incentive when everyone speaks French around you. And in some of these places Basque has not been spoken for centuries, the actual language of Bayonne would be Gascon, which is a truly underrated language.

For France at any rate, there's real no desire to strengthen the cohesion with Spain through Basque, because reinforcing Basque would be reinforcing a regionalism, a regionalism that in the southern Basque country takes the form of a strong nationalism, one that the French are afraid of. Another region that could potentially be a bridge to their southern neighbour, if they so wanted it, is Catalunya. They could promote Catalan in north Catalunya for example, in Rossillon, where Catalan is currently dying a slow and agonising death.

But they won't. Because they're afraid of Catalan nationalism and a Jacobin state doesn't understand devolved powers. All roads run through Paris and the Parisian pen pushers and politicians don't want to yield an inch to Basque or Catalan or Alsacien, even though German is the second most spoken language in Europe, you would think that encouraging bilingual education in a Germanic language would be a priority...but no.

[rdearman]

Religion and politics: Some families have a rule that says, "No political or religious arguments during holiday dinner." This forum has a similar rule year-round, for much the same reasons. We have people here from all over the world, with incredibly diverse political and religious views, and we all get along much better if we avoid these subjects.

If the politics or religion is genuinely related to language learning, then you have a small amount of leeway—as long as people remain respectful and refrain from fighting. But if a moderator asks you to stop, please stop. You can fight about politics and religion on almost any other site on the Internet. This site is for language learning.

[nooj]

How can you talk about French language policy without talking about politics? French language policy IS politics. If someone says that:

I think that their neighbours are underestimating the importance of getting to know each other as a means to strenghten the cohesion within the two countries.

And I say that France doesn't want to get to know their neighbouring states through their regional cultures because France does not care about its regional cultures (or worse, sees them as active threats to its unity, as has been the case since the instauration of the Republic), how can I subtract politics from that?

[Cavesa]

I didn't mean to start a political debate. But it is simply true that languages often become symbols of a certain culture or group. History of my own country documents it really well. In the 18th and 19th century, the German speaking part of the country (or region within the AU) simply didn't care about the Czech speaking part. Not just the politicians but also people all across the society. Language wise: the czechs were bilingual, the German natives were not. And the Czech natives didn't take it lightly and the tension lead to serious consequences much later. The Czech-Slovak relationship during the times of federation was important too. The tv had an obligatory Slovak day in the week, so that the native Slovaks wouldn't feel marginalized. And I could find a few more examples.

I didn't mean France would strenghten ties with Spain through Basque. I meant normal people, especially within Spain, could strenghten their relationship with their neighbours within the country. And no matter what kind politics and separatism or centralism is going on now, I see now wonder in this issue being a sense of tension every now and then. You cannot just let your autonomous regions have two official languages on paper but otherwise ignore their importance, in my opinion.

Learning the language of someone means taking interest in them. In their culture, history, hearts. And I think the "underratedness" of most languages lies exactly there. We are not showing enough interest in people close to us. People within our countries or nearby, people we often get in contact with. That's why I believe there is very little value in trying to find globally underrated languages. But the issue of regionally underrated languages is very much alive and totally neglected.

From this point of view, even German is underrated in the neighbouring countries. France and the Czech Republic are direct neighbours of German speaking countries and have lots and lots of important ties to them. Yet, German is despite all the economical and political power completely overlooked in favour of English. It may officially be number two in popularity, but the real overall results are poor. And I've seen various situations, where this weirdness showed.

The languages of countries with lots of tourists are being underrated too. There are people who visit Italy, Croatia, or Hungary every year. But they never learn the language and never care for more than just the most obvious attractions. No real interest in those countries and people. No wonder that, for example, Italians are really fed up with tourists in many popular places. Some people are excited about pizza and the Colloseum and the sea, and they go there every year, claiming to "love Italy". But instead of learning the basics of Italian, they complain about italians not speaking English well enough.

I know I look eurocentric, but that is the region I know the best. I know much less about others, but I suppose very similar examples could be found among the Indian languages, the Chinese languages, or the original languages of american countries, both northern and southern.

[geoffw]

In general, I would say many of the middle sized languages are underrepresented. For example Polish. How many people learn Polish? It has 55 milions of native speakers, expat communities all over the world, especially in whole Europe and North America, Poland has important business ties to the whole region. It should be a regionally important and often studied language.

I've been studying Polish for most of the past year or so, for various reasons, none of which are going to be terribly compelling to the average American (e.g., it gives me insight into the development of Yiddish, I enjoy the unique phonology, etc.). But it does seem like a "smart" pick for a non-Polish European looking to get a useful skill for the future that few others will have. It's the most common non-English language spoken in the UK and looks like a decent bet for future economic growth, for example. (Not to mention that once you have acquired Polish, you're 85% of the way towards Czech and Slovak.)

I was rather surprised that recently at one of the big Polyglot events I was speaking to a young woman from Germany, and when she saw the "PL" flag sticker on my badge, she asked me in what seemed an almost disdainful tone, "why would anyone study Polish"? It's a fair question, but not one I would expect to hear at a Polyglot event, and certainly not in such a seemingly negative manner from someone whose country shares a border with Poland.

[nooj]

I didn't mean France would strenghten ties with Spain through Basque. I meant normal people, especially within Spain, could strenghten their relationship with their neighbours within the country. And no matter what kind politics and separatism or centralism is going on now, I see now wonder in this issue being a sense of tension every now and then. You cannot just let your autonomous regions have two official languages on paper but otherwise ignore their importance, in my opinion.

Learning the language of someone means taking interest in them. In their culture, history, hearts. And I think the "underratedness" of most languages lies exactly there. We are not showing enough interest in people close to us. People within our countries or nearby, people we often get in contact with. That's why I believe there is very little value in trying to find globally underrated languages. But the issue of regionally underrated languages is very much alive and totally neglected.

First of all, excuse my poor reading comprehension that meant I misread your post. Second, I agree with you that learning a language is a way to connect with someone, and in fact it should be a very beautiful thing!

However, I disagree with you on one thing that I find important. When you talk about regional languages, you are restricting yourself. We should talk about immigrant languages as well. Europe is plural now. Of course I think French people should be interested in their regional, historical languages, I can only cheer that on. In fact, the best thing they could do is to change their Constitution (the one that says the only language of France is French) so that regional languages actually get the legal protection they deserve.

but they should also be more interested in the languages of their immigrants: Portuguese, Arabic, Berber, Turkish, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Wolof, Fang. These are not global languages, but these are home languages, often more heard on the street than any of the regional languages. Your neighbour who is an immigrant is someone close to you. Why do we not care about their language?

[Cavesa]

I was rather surprised that recently at one of the big Polyglot events I was speaking to a young woman from Germany, and when she saw the "PL" flag sticker on my badge, she asked me in what seemed an almost disdainful tone, "why would anyone study Polish"? It's a fair question, but not one I would expect to hear at a Polyglot event, and certainly not in such a seemingly negative manner from someone whose country shares a border with Poland.

No suprise. I few young Germans asked me "where is the Czech Republic?" I can understand such a question coming from an american or chinese (a japanese is likely to know the location quite precisely as soon as you mention the previous Czechoslovakia name). But from a german? And the attitude to Polish and Czech are often negative among germans even when it comes to these languages still being kept alive by expats in Germany. To be fair: many czechs would ask you the same question: "Why would anyone stuy Polish"?

This is a good example of some languages being totally underrated.

However, I disagree with you on one thing that I find important. When you talk about regional languages, you are restricting yourself. We should talk about immigrant languages as well. Europe is plural now. Of course I think French people should be interested in their regional, historical languages, I can only cheer that on. In fact, the best thing they could do is to change their Constitution (the one that says the only language of France is French) so that regional languages actually get the legal protection they deserve.

but they should also be more interested in the languages of their immigrants: Portuguese, Arabic, Berber, Turkish, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Wolof, Fang. These are not global languages, but these are home languages, often more heard on the street than any of the regional languages. Your neighbour who is an immigrant is someone close to you. Why do we not care about their language?

This is a much more complex and sensitive issue.

First of all, this should never become an excuse for an immigrant to not learn the new language. For example the Czechoslovaks emigrating during communism were creating not that small populations in various countries, but they always learnt the new home language, without expecting the same from the natives. From what I have seen both in the Czech Republic and in France, this is an issue with a part of the immigrants. So I am definitely in favour of learning the languages of newcomers, especially in healthcare, which I have the most experience with and where you can hardly expect old sick people to speak a language foreign to them. But this good intention could easily become counterproductive in some cases. Even the English native expats are a good example too. They profit from their language being a global one and abuse this fact to just live here even for twenty years without actually learning the language and wanting to know our culture.

Secondly, but perhaps even more importantly, not all the immigrant communities want the majority to learn their language. Czech Vietnamese are a very good example. The keep their language alive, their children tend to be fully bilingual. But even starting a conversation like "it would be nice to learn Vietnamese" leads to a very clear and fast end, with the official statement being "it would be too hard for you". But the simple truth seems to be that they don't want to share their language as they might perceive it as a loss. And who am I to tell them otherwise?

The issue of newcomers is simply new and will require time to settle down, whatever the outcome will be. But there is little excuse for not being interested at all in people living next to us for centuries. And therefore we cannot be surprised that we often don't understand each other even after such a long time.