Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

General discussion about learning languages
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Josquin
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby Josquin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:27 pm

dampingwire wrote: plus the German for "a face badly in need of a fist" (which I'm sure I've been told exists although I cannot find it right now and I'm somewhat surprised doesn't exist in more cultures)

That would be a "Backpfeifengesicht", although this isn't a very common word. I can't recall ever having actually used it, so probably it's a dated expression.

Regarding the discussion, I'd like to add that language doesn't shape a culture, but culture may shape language. If we take a look at all the Asian honorifics and social registers, they tell us something about Asian culture where politeness and respect is very important. You will find them in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Thai, and probably more languages.

I can only really talk about the Japanese honorific system, but it reflects a culture where it is absolutely vital to be polite to strangers and superiors while linguistic intimacy is reserved for close relations, friends, and even inferior persons. So, a shop clerk will always use polite language with customers, while they in turn will use informal language with him or her. It's not the language that made Japanese culture this way, it's the culture that formed the language.

After all, language follows social rules or may even be seen as the means by which society is organized. In this regard, Wittgenstein talked about the "Sprachspiel" (language game) which follows certain rules that are formed by society. Getting back to Japanese, the language has been called very "socially aware", meaning it expresses social relations in a very subtle and nuanced way.

However, it would be wrong to think it was the language which formed the culture of this society. On the contrary, it was the culture which formed the language through the centuries. Of course, some cultural codes are engrained into the language now and transferred this way, but ultimately language only reflects culture.

Other example, a lot of European languages used to have a T-V distinction, which is nowadays virtually lost. I think of Dutch and the Scandinavian languages. The reason is a loss of formality in the related cultures, which made it superfluous to refer to someone with a special respectful pronoun. I even remember that former forum member Solfrid Cristin, who is Norwegian, was virtually shocked by the degree of politeness of German business letters. And yes, German still keeps the T-V distinction.

So, is German a more formal language or is German culture itself more formal? I think the latter is true, as people from the Netherlands or Scandinavia are often regarded as very relaxed and informal compared to Germans. So, once more, it's the language that reflects cultural values and rules and not the other way round.
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby tarvos » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:46 pm

I would not say that the T-V distinction is lost in Dutch as much as its significance has somewhat shifted to require less use of the formal. The formal is still preferred in some situations.
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby Josquin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:43 am

tarvos wrote:I would not say that the T-V distinction is lost in Dutch as much as its significance has somewhat shifted to require less use of the formal. The formal is still preferred in some situations.

Yeah, that's why I said the T-V distinction was virtually lost. Please don't take what I said too literally. I know the formal "u" still exists, but it's much less used than German "Sie" or French "vous". That's what I meant to say.

But maybe the Scandinavian languages are a better example than Dutch. I don't know of anyone using formal "ni" in Swedish or "De" in Danish any more. The same goes for Icelandic "þér".
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby tarvos » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:44 am

It hasn't even been virtually lost in Dutch. It's just used in a more restricted fashion. Your statement concerning the Scandinavian languages is correct.
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby Josquin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:46 am

tarvos wrote:It hasn't even been virtually lost in Dutch. It's just used in a more restricted fashion.

Which was my point... :roll:
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby tarvos » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:07 am

The reason I'm saying it is because the movement is going the other way in Dutch again - I notice there's a tendency among the young generation to switch to u again.
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby Josquin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:41 pm

Okay, that's interesting to know! I didn't know there was sort of a backwards trend regarding "u". I can see why my statement was imprecise now.
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby Iversen » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:54 pm

tarvos wrote:I don't know of anyone using formal "ni" in Swedish or "De" in Danish any more. The same goes for Icelandic "þér".


As far as I know you are still presumed to be "Des" (i.e. using the formal "De") with the Danish queen and at least some members of her family, but you are "dus" (i.e. use the informal "du") with everybody else, including the ministers and clergy and old people (unless they prove their age by protesting). At least she doesn't expect you to prostrate and say "deres majestæt" (although I'm sure some elderly people still do precisely that until they are told to stop).

The funny thing is that English "you" actually is the formal word, and you only use the informal "thou" with God in prayers - so some of us never need to use it. On the other and "du" is the original 2. personal singular, and "De" is the third person plural - which is absolute idiotic to use for one person standing in front of you. Maybe it once was the same word, but it isn't any longer.

And only those affected by English language habits use "du" for people in general - which is a totally superfluous bad habit in Danish because we have the excellent word "man" for the purpose. And no, it isn't a case of sexism because male humans are spelled "mand" (which is pronounced with the accent called 'stød') so it is not even the same word.

And we have an interrogative partikel like the Esperanta "ĉu: "mon" (which actually is the last remnant of the old verb "monne", which still lives on in Icelandic as "múna"). Match that, English ....
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:02 pm

i think that they are closley connected, but not inseparable. i think that they are more separable, but that many people connect them too much in their thoughts.

They are connected because they influence each other, and the language which is your native langauge influences you because it's in a culture and because your thoughts are in that language until you learn other languages and can switch.

Also your native language is a thing that the poeple from the other countries notice and they think immediately that you are from the biggest culture where your langauge is spoken. I think that for example the Irish or Scottish experience that the other countries assume that they are English or American.

I've got the experience in London that they assume that I'm French, and they have said for example about the differences between a republic and a kingdom, that britain is a kingdom not like my country, but that is wrong because I am from a kingdom as well. They generalise a lot of things from the french culture to judge, and I think that in the continental european countries many people don't completely separate british things from the american ones for example that in the USA many people can't get medical care, so they assume that it's the same in the UK.

I think that they (many people) do the same with Spanish. hispanic, Spain, all Latin America, latino/a etc are put together because of the spanish language.
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Re: Language and Culture, are they inseparable?

Postby Kraut » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:53 pm

As has been shown recently today's Greeks are made up in their gene-pool mostly of ancient Mediterranean people and only of about 20 per cent of those people that descend from the invaders that brought with them an Indo-European language that became the Greek language that we know.
If this minority brought a more advanced culture, what characterised it? A big riddle that has not been solved yet.

One hypothesis:
https://www.amazon.com/Horse-Wheel-Lang ... 069114818X
The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World
.
Roughly half the world's population speaks languages derived from a shared linguistic source known as Proto-Indo-European. But who were the early speakers of this ancient mother tongue, and how did they manage to spread it around the globe? Until now their identity has remained a tantalizing mystery to linguists, archaeologists, and even Nazis seeking the roots of the Aryan race. The Horse, the Wheel, and Language lifts the veil that has long shrouded these original Indo-European speakers, and reveals how their domestication of horses and use of the wheel spread language and transformed civilization.
Linking prehistoric archaeological remains with the development of language, David Anthony identifies the prehistoric peoples of central Eurasia's steppe grasslands as the original speakers of Proto-Indo-European, and shows how their innovative use of the ox wagon, horseback riding, and the warrior's chariot turned the Eurasian steppes into a thriving transcontinental corridor of communication, commerce, and cultural exchange. He explains how they spread their traditions and gave rise to important advances in copper mining, warfare, and patron-client political institutions, thereby ushering in an era of vibrant social change. Anthony also describes his fascinating discovery of how the wear from bits on ancient horse teeth reveals the origins of horseback riding.
The Horse, the Wheel, and Language solves a puzzle that has vexed scholars for two centuries--the source of the Indo-European languages and English--and recovers a magnificent and influential civilization from the past.
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