nooj wrote:In Spain (and in Portugal), many languages cohabit the peninsula. The primary one is Spanish however, and the problem there is that basically everyone who speaks a regional language is bilingual in Spanish, the lingua franca as well as that regional language. This has serious effects on multilingualism, and I don't just mean between Spanish and Catalan, Basque, Galician, Asturian, Aragonese etc, but between these languages themselves.
I think in Spain it's gone beyond "lingua franca" status as Galicia is the only autonomous community where a majority of the population speaks a language other than Spanish natively. In Catalonia and the Basque Country Spanish-speakers far outnumber Catalan-speakers and Basque-speakers.
Speakeasy wrote:To my mind, the assertion that the use of linguae francae represents problem is an example of a strawman argument.
A strawman of which argument, exactly?
reineke wrote:“Mother tongue countries have had their day,” said Crystal, who was in India as a British Council guest to speak on the Future of Englishes."
[...]
This kind of attitude was not invented in the good ole USA. However, the phenomenon of Global English is both new and unprecedented in speed, size and scope. The long term consequences are difficult to predict.
I've seen a couple of Anglophone linguists make this claim about "Globish" but what is their actual evidence? TESOL is still dominated by native English-speakers, international cultural trends are still overwhelmingly imported from the US, English-language music is overwhelmingly dominated by US artists... it seems like wishful thinking more than anything else.
DaveBee wrote:As I understand it Ladino is essentially medieval spanish,
It's not. No modern language is an "older" form of another modern language. Some languages may be relatively more conservative but all languages change over time.
iguanamon wrote:Playing devil's advocate, are there any monolingual adult speakers of Basque, Catalan, Asturian and Galician in Spain today? When I was there recently, I didn't meet any. Not that I am against learning Iberian languages, I have three, but what would be the practical benefit of someone living and working in Castillian-speaking regions of Spain learning those four languages when those speaking the other languages can all speak Spanish just as well?
No, there aren't any monolingual speakers anymore. But that to my mind is not a cutting criticism.
The Spanish linguist, Juan Carlos Moreno Cabrera, points out that it is completely feasible for every castellanohablante Spaniard to understand the other Romance languages of the Iberian peninsula with a bit of study. Learning Catalan, Galician, Asturian, Aragonese etc does not mean learning to use them actively, which indeed requires some effort. The kind of profound multilingualism I would like to see starts from something as simple as learning to understand people.
Since practicality seems to be a pressing issue, let me point out that many Spaniards move to other regions for whatever reason, and so it is not uncommon for a castellanohablante to come to Catalunya, Galicia, the Basque Country, where indeed it becomes practical in many contexts to speak the language: in administration, the jobs in Catalunya, Valencia or the Basque Country require a relatively high level of the local language. If you're a medical worker, the same.
But being worried about practicality is missing the point, in my opinion. Of course all things considered, a powerful language will net you more jobs than a minority one. And I acknowledge that given the time and effort involved in learning a language, it is more sensible to learn the powerful one. The point is why are they more practical, and how can we challenge that position of power?
A powerful language like Spanish dominates the domains of use that determine practicality. In fact, they create the standards by which practicality is determined. That is to say, for a language to be worth something (usually in monetary value, because $$$practicality$$$), it needs to have a written literature, have sex appeal, cultural media that can be published, televised, streamed, have a large enough demographic with enough buying power...
How many languages like that are there in the world? Maybe twenty, if that. It is no surprise that Spanish, English, Russian, Chinese, Arabic, French are more practical than Ch'ol, Irish, Tartar, Shona.
A blockbuster movie in English earns half a billion dollars. A good Basque bertsolari can attract a couple hundred people to his or her performance. A Spanish or French speaker could be forgiven for looking at Basque, at its paltry literary output, its afiction for oral literature, and simply consider it to be inferior, because Spanish and French are more practical in a world where oral literature is not a valued cultural product.
Saim wrote:I've seen a couple of Anglophone linguists make this claim about "Globish" but what is their actual evidence? TESOL is still dominated by native English-speakers, international cultural trends are still overwhelmingly imported from the US, English-language music is overwhelmingly dominated by US artists... it seems like wishful thinking more than anything else.
I agree completely. Where is the Globlish wave from Nigeria, India or China that we should expect to see?
Related to the dominance of native speakers, let me quote the original post to which the Albanian poster was replying to:
"Més enllà de les nostres fronteres, l'anglès ens ajuda a posar-nos en contacte amb persones i cultures ben diferents: si no fos per una llengua comú, desarrelada ja fins i tot dels seus orígens, no ens seria pas possible, aquesta comunicació tan rica i fructífera. "
Un moment, un moment. El que estàs definint no és l'anglès, és l'existència d'una llengua comuna per a tothom. I ja veurem si l'anglès servirà per "entrar en contacte amb cultures diferents" o per matar-les.
Jo, estic a favor que hi hagi una llengua comuna per a tothom, a condició que no sigui la llengua de ningú. Si no, hi ha ciutadans de primera i de segona. Si no, estem donant un avantatge afegit als poderosos del planeta. Què fan els angloamericans durant la incomptable sèrie d'hores que nosaltres hem de dedicar a aprendre la seva llengua? Ells no aprenen la nostra, ni cap d'altra. Ells es preparen. Què fan amb els diners que s'estalvien perquè no han d'aprendre anglès? Ells es preparen. Són ja d'entrada més rics, tenen més temps i es preparen millor (i si no es preparen gaire sempre trobaran feina com a professors d'anglès en algun racó de món). De manera que el dia que hagis de competir amb ells per una plaça laboral, per vendre un producte o en un congrés de qualsevol matèria, ells hauran tingut més temps per preparar-se i sempre jugaran a casa perquè el teu anglès mai no serà tan fluïd, tan fresc i tan convincent com el d'ells.
No entenc el vostre entusiasme. A casa meva, d'això en diuen "cornuts i pagar el beure".
"Beyond our borders, English helps us to get into contact with people and cultures very different from our own. If it wasn't for a language in common, uprooted from its origins, it wouldn't be possible for us to have that rich and fruitful communication that we enjoy."
Wait up, wait up. What are you are defining is not English, it is the existence of a language that is common to everyone. And we'll see whether English will help us to "enter into contact with different cultures" or will kill them.
I am for having a common language for everyone, on the condition that this be the language of no one. If not, there are going to be first class and second class citizens. If not, we are giving an extra advantage to the powerful of the planet. What do the Anglo-Americans do during the countless hours that we have to dedicate towards learning their language? They don't learn our language, nor do they learn any other language. They prepare. What do they do with the money that they save because they don't have to learn English? They prepare. They're from the outset richer, they have more time and they prepare themselves better. And if they fail to prepare themselves better than us, almost always they'll be able to at least find some job as an English teacher in some corner of the world. So that the day we have to compete with them for a job placement, to sell a product or in a meeting of whatever subject, they will have had more time to prepare themselves and they will always play from a home field advantage because your English will never as fluid, as fresh and as convincing as theirs.
I don't understand your enthusiasm. Where I live, we call that "getting kicked in the balls and having to be grateful for it." (I'm not actually sure what the English saying is for cornuts i pagar el beure so I just made one up that fit the sense).
Now I don't share the idea of some neutral language (I'm not opposed to the existence of a lingua franca, just the circumstances of its actual existence) but otherwise the sentiment rings completely true. And the playing field is very tilted indeed for some people. It is a certifiable fact that certain learners, because of their accent or name or skin colour, are discriminated in terms of employment and lodging. Indians, Chinese, think of the times that the way they speak English is played for laughs, and this is not laughing with, it is laughing at.
I thought that Catalan was in a healthier state. Learning a bit of "Catalan, Galician, Asturian, Aragonese etc." receptively when no one is "transmitting" seems pretty pointless.
reineke wrote:I thought that Catalan was in a healthier state. Learning a bit of "Catalan, Galician, Asturian, Aragonese etc." receptively when no one is "transmitting" seems pretty pointless.
Who said that no-one is transmitting Catalan or Galician? The vast majority (i.e. virtually all) of Catalan-speakers in Catalonia are still passing on Catalan to their children, and in fact there are more Spanish-speakers transmitting Catalan to their children than the other way around, it's just that most new immigrants adopt Spanish so that throws out the balance. Galician is also the mother tongue of many young people although there has been some shift, unlike in the case of Catalan (in Catalonia and the Balearics, at least).
Catalan is way ahead of even Galician in terms of prestige and public use even though Galician is ahead in terms of % native speakers (but then again, so is Neapolitan). And neither of these languages can be compared to Asturian, which itself is ahead of the severely endangered Aragonese.
EDIT: I guess you meant "transmitting" in the sense of there being nothing produced in these languages. Except a lot is produced in Catalan (and to a lesser extent Galician), so...
nooj wrote:No, there aren't any monolingual speakers anymore. But that to my mind is not a cutting criticism.
Oh no, it wasn't mean as criticism, I completely agree with you. I'm just suggesting that the situation is even worse than implied in your original post.
Much room for improvement for Spain’s regional languages, Council of Europe says
The report... "also highlights the lack of adequate protection for the most endangered languages of Spain like Arabic in Ceuta, Portuguese in Extremadura, Astur- Leonese in Castile and Leon, Galician in Extremadura, and Valencian in Murcia and Tamazight in Melilla, which has slightly improved. Consequently, increased attention and further action is needed."
I am getting mixed messages here. If the languages are thriving so much the better.
Nooj, have you considered the plight of native-speakers of a dominant lingua franca who, as avid students of a foreign language, wish to communicate with native-speakers of their L2 language but are stymied in their attempts to do so owing to the insistence on the part of the L2-native-speakers on using the lingua franca? In your search for victims, have you considered their predicament?
reineke wrote:Much room for improvement for Spain’s regional languages, Council of Europe says
The report... "also highlights the lack of adequate protection for the most endangered languages of Spain like Arabic in Ceuta, Portuguese in Extremadura, Astur- Leonese in Castile and Leon, Galician in Extremadura, and Valencian in Murcia and Tamazight in Melilla, which has slightly improved. Consequently, increased attention and further action is needed."
I am getting mixed messages here. If the languages are thriving so much the better.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Yes, of course Catalan in Catalonia and the Balearics is in a different situation to the handful of Portuguese villages in Extremadura. Right? There are many different levels of endangerment.
Speakeasy wrote:Nooj, have you considered the plight of native-speakers of a dominant lingua franca who, as avid students of a foreign language, wish to communicate with native-speakers of their L2 language but are stymied in their attempts to do so owing to the insistence on the part of the L2-native-speakers on using the lingua franca? In your search for victims, have you considered their predicament?
This happens to L2 speakers of the lingua franca as well.
Saim wrote: ... This happens to L2 speakers of the lingua franca as well.
I detect absolutely no malice on the part of the OP, on the contrary! Nevertheless, I find that his views concerning "bridge languages" tend to focus on the apparent inequalities that he believes they promote and on the purported victims thereof. My reference to the "plight" of the avid language-learner was merely an illustration that "life is unfair" even for those who just happen to possess a lingua franca as a native speaker. I have a hard time accepting the proposition that greater multilingualism will correct the world's inequalities.
Image: Life is unfair
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reineke wrote:I thought that Catalan was in a healthier state. Learning a bit of "Catalan, Galician, Asturian, Aragonese etc." receptively when no one is "transmitting" seems pretty pointless.
Who said that no-one is transmitting Catalan or Galician? The vast majority (i.e. virtually all) of Catalan-speakers in Catalonia are still passing on Catalan to their children, and in fact there are more Spanish-speakers transmitting Catalan to their children than the other way around, it's just that most new immigrants adopt Spanish so that throws out the balance. Galician is also the mother tongue of many young people although there has been some shift, unlike in the case of Catalan (in Catalonia and the Balearics, at least).
Catalan is way ahead of even Galician in terms of prestige and public use even though Galician is ahead in terms of % native speakers (but then again, so is Neapolitan). And neither of these languages can be compared to Asturian, which itself is ahead of the severely endangered Aragonese.
EDIT: I guess you meant "transmitting" in the sense of there being nothing produced in these languages. Except a lot is produced in Catalan (and to a lesser extent Galician), so...
What about the other languages?
Saim wrote:
reineke wrote:Much room for improvement for Spain’s regional languages, Council of Europe says
The report... "also highlights the lack of adequate protection for the most endangered languages of Spain like Arabic in Ceuta, Portuguese in Extremadura, Astur- Leonese in Castile and Leon, Galician in Extremadura, and Valencian in Murcia and Tamazight in Melilla, which has slightly improved. Consequently, increased attention and further action is needed."
I am getting mixed messages here. If the languages are thriving so much the better.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Yes, of course Catalan in Catalonia and the Balearics is in a different situation to the handful of Portuguese villages in Extremadura. Right? There are many different levels of endangerment.
The point is that I am getting mixed messages about the vitality of some of these languages. There are different levels of endangerment and there are different criteria to ascertain the vitality of a language. lntergenerational transmission is only one criterion.
"A language is in danger when its speakers cease to use it, use it in an increasingly reduced number of communicative domains, and cease to pass it on from one generation to the next."
"No single factor is sufficient to assess the state of a community’s language. However, taken together, these nine factors can determine the viability of a language, its function in society and the type of measures required for its maintenance or revitalization."
UNESCO Interactive Atlas of the World’s Languages in Danger
Spain Aragonese, Asturian-Leonese Definitely endangered; children no longer learn the language as mother tongue in the home Basque vulnerable Most children speak the language, but it may be restricted to certain domains (e.g., home)
Galician is "no longer an endangered language, according to UNESCO. Actually, it is not included in the third edition of the International Atlas of Endangered Languages, prepared by the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO).."
Languages: English (N) Spanish (adv) French (int) German (int) Japanese (int) Korean (int) Mandarin (int) Portuguese (int) Russian (int) Swahili (int) Tagalog (int) Thai (int)
