Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

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Tutescrew
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Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby Tutescrew » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:45 pm

Hello all,

I am a native English speaker and I have started to learn Spanish via Pimsleur. I am currently on Unit 11 of Spanish 1. A long way to go, I know, but I have a 1960s Linguaphone course that I plan on starting around 1 January, along with a similarly-aged Berlitz course. The reason I chose the latter two is because I am intrigued by Prof. Arguelle's video on learning Spanish-French-Italian-German. Thinking ahead several months, I am wondering if there is any merit to using Spanish to learn French...specifically, using Assimil's current product. On one hand, it seems like a cool, elegant, and simple way to keep learning and reviewing Spanish. On the other hand, I cannot imagine that it would not slow down the learning of French. Oh, I "studied" French in school for 8 years, until I was 17...so not exactly a beginner there, but it's been 0.35 centuries since I stopped. I am not that concerned about learning either of these languages as fast as possible, but I do not want to go down a path that could make things significantly slower than if I was to proceed in a more traditional way. Does any body have experience doing something like this, or does anyone have any comments?

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Tutescrew's French Progress
: 30 / 30 Pimsleur French I
: 16 / 30 Pimsleur French II
: 3 / 10 FSI French Phonology

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Re: Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby Xmmm » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:25 pm

In case you don't get a response from someone more qualified ...

You're talking about "laddering." The general recommendation for that would be to wait until you are at least B2 in Spanish before you try to learn French through Spanish. This is to avoid getting the languages confused.

I haven't tried it. It seems like the people who try it report mixed results.

The thing is ... learning Spanish to a B2 level first will entitle you to a big discount when you go to learn French, whether you ladder or not. So the added value of laddering isn't clear to me (looking at it from the outside).
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Re: Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby Cainntear » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:23 pm

I can't say I'm a fan of the idea personally.

When I started learning Catalan, I had a good level of both French and Spanish, and I studied primarily from a French-base Assimil. What I found a short way into the book was that if I didn't understand a phrase in the Catalan, I wasn't going to understand the French anyway, and there were a fair few explanations that passed me by. I don't suppose this is as big an issue if you're going to do the course sitting next to a computer so that you can google phrases, but I like to get away during a lunch break and sit with a book and an MP3 player.

The whole idea, whether with Assimil or other materials, strikes me as pretty pointless. First up, if the course is any good, it makes assumptions about what you'll find easy and difficult based on your presumed mother tongue, so a well-designed French course for Spanish speakers isn't going to really cover certain points in as much depth as you might like. Secondly, the point of L1 explanation is to make you confident in the meaning of the material you're covering, where L2-only courses often make you familiar with the form, but leave a very vague connection between form and meaning. If you go into an L2->L3 course, you're going to accumulate "fuzziness" in your understanding, as any lack of clarity in your reading of the L2 will be amplified in L3.
Eventually, you find yourself parroting forms while not exactly knowing the meaning.
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Re: Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:27 pm

Welcome to the forum, Tutescrew! I look forward to following your participation in the numerous, wide-ranging discussions in this forum. Now, as to your project ...

I have successfully used my L2 to study an L3 with Assimil. However, in every case, my level in the L2 language was advanced. I would not recommend that you attempt such a rigorous study routine unless your L2 skills were in the high-intermediate range. There are more language-learning materials available for the study of Spanish, French, et cetera from your L1 base than you could possibly ever use.

Furthermore, even if you were to complete the full Pimsleur programme (that is, Levels I through V), your ability in the L2 upon completion would be A1, at best! Please note that I am not knocking the programme. I thoroughly enjoyed the Pimsleur programme, every bit as much as I enjoyed splashing around in the Wading Pool when I was kid.

Going the L2-L3 route with an A0 level in the L2 will lead to frustration, confusion, lost time, wasted efforts, and the development of difficult-to-correct errors, none of which are particularly encouraging. Persevering in one's study of a foreign language is a difficult-enough challenge without creating additional obstacles for oneself.
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Re: Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby Tutescrew » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:57 pm

Thank you all for replying.

The answers were about what I expected. If/when i start studying French, I most likely will use English materials...but if my Spanish is advanced enough, perhaps I will use laddering *in addition* to English.

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Re: Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby leosmith » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:10 am

Another option is to use French In Action. It starts out at a very low level and gradually builds in difficulty. It's sort of like using L2 to learn L2.
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Re: Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby Speakeasy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:21 pm

Tutescrew, two quick (off-topic) points:

(1) As you have already completed Lesson 11 of Pimsleur Spanish I, you are familiar with one of the few notable problems with this method; that is, the absence of written material that corresponds directly to the audio lessons, something that the "Reading Booklet" does not do. Pimsleur finally addressed this issue with the "Unlimited" version of their courses wherein portions of the vocabulary are presented on the computer screen (they could have achieved a similar effect by simply including a downloadable Glossary on their website). I have sent you a Private Message expanding on this matter (you'll have to Log In in order to access it).

(2) An important feature of the Pimsleur program is that the "structure" of the target language is presented through the presentation of example words and phrases, without direct reference to, or mentioning of, the underlying grammatical concepts. Thus, in an ideal situation, the student will learn the L2's structure by inference and will assimilate its major features through the reinforcement provided in the lessons. Nevertheless, there is a risk that a misunderstanding of some important features may develop, not to mention a sense of frustration due to the lack of a head-on explanation. To counter these effects, I suggest that you accompany your use of the Pimsleur program with a simple Grammar of the Spanish language; consulting a more elaborate one at this stage would merely drag you down the "Rabbit Hole" and, assuming that you can find your way back the surface, you'll be more confused than when you started. I recommend "Spanish Verbs & Essentials of Grammar", 2nd edition, by Ina W. Ramboz, published by McGraw-Hill.
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Re: Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby Speakeasy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:43 am

Tutescrew, although this discussion has come to an end, I thought that you might wish to know that a similar discussion, of quite a considerable length, took place fairly recently in this forum. The consensus was pretty much the same as the one reached above.

Which language to use as a base, when learning a new language -- A language learners' forum -- August, 2017
https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6437

There is no need to respond to this post, I merely thought that you might be interested in reading through the previous thread. Good luck with your studies!
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Re: Using L2 to learn L3 via Assimil

Postby reineke » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:07 am

leosmith wrote:Another option is to use French In Action. It starts out at a very low level and gradually builds in difficulty. It's sort of like using L2 to learn L2.


Actually, "sort of" is an understatement. "The series uses context and repetition, rather than translation, to teach the meanings of words. With the exception of a brief English language introduction at the beginning of each episode, the series is conducted entirely in French."

There's also a textbook and some expensive accessories.

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https://www.learner.org/resources/series83.html
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