Whose/who's and other homophones in English

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dampingwire
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby dampingwire » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:50 pm

Josquin wrote:While it maybe true that "whose" is mainly a spelling convention,


The OED's oldest citation is circa 897, although the spelling didn't settle down until the late 1500s.

Josquin wrote:it may also be noted that other pronouns in English behave similarly, cf. "his", "hers", and "its", neither of which has the regular apostrophized s of the noun declension.


hi's her's and so on would look odd :-)

Josquin wrote:To my mind, distinguishing "its" from "it's" is much more difficult than "whose" from "who's", but maybe that's just me.


it's == "it is" or "it has". If it is not one of those two cases, then you should use "its".

"who's" == "who is" or "who has". If it is not one of those two cases, then you should use "whose".

I do have to stop and think sometimes ... but that's probably a good thing :-)
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Re: Whose/who's and other homophones in English

Postby Josquin » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:15 pm

While I don't really feel like continuing this discussion any longer, I nevertheless feel obliged to respond to dampingwire's post.

First of all thanks for the clarification about the OED. However, it was Serpent who stated that today the spelling "whose" was merely a spelling convention as old as this spelling may be. I'd be the first to support historically correct spellings over modernizations, so your beef is with her. It took me like forever to really accept the reformed German orthography, although I even learned it at school, but that's a different story. Suffice it to say I'd put historical/etymological correctness over apparent modern "logic" any time.

Yeah, "hi's" or "he's" and "her's" would look funny, but only because you're not used to seeing them. To my mind, "who's" instead of "whose" is just as funny, but each to his own.

Also, I'm absolutely aware of when to write "it's" and "who's" and when to write "its" and "whose". I have been learning English for over 20 years now, so thank you for this little lesson which took me back to my first year of English at school. However, "it's" just seems more logical as "its", just as "who's" seems to be the logical alternative of "whose". I always have to actively remind me the pronoun is spelt "its" and not "it's", just as gsbod says.

Other than that, I'm withdrawing from this discussion. I really don't feel like answering an endless string of posts only because I got the pronunciation of "who's" wrong once. Moreover, I don't really think the question is that interesting. So, will you please excuse me? Thank you!
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Re: Whose/who's and other homophones in English

Postby aaleks » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:27 pm

dampingwire wrote:it's == "it is" or "it has". If it is not one of those two cases, then you should use "its".

"who's" == "who is" or "who has". If it is not one of those two cases, then you should use "whose".

Could there be the third case - it was/who was? I ask as an English-learner :)
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Re: Whose/who's and other homophones in English

Postby dampingwire » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:17 pm

aaleks wrote:Could there be the third case - it was/who was? I ask as an English-learner :)


I don't believe that there is any contraction for either of those two cases.
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Re: Whose/who's and other homophones in English

Postby tomgosse » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:41 am

peter wrote:But "Mary/merry/marry" are three distinct sounds for me. (Must be that Devon air I grew up in.)

I'm from Boston, MA and "Mary/merry/marry" are also distinct for me. Maybe it's because my English ancestors also came from Devon. But that was three hundred years ago. :roll:
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Re: Whose/who's and other homophones in English

Postby Serpent » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:49 am

dampingwire wrote:
aaleks wrote:Could there be the third case - it was/who was? I ask as an English-learner :)


I don't believe that there is any contraction for either of those two cases.

You can use 'twas in poetry (including children's rhymes) but it sounds really odd in ordinary speech.
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby Ani » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:35 am

dampingwire wrote:it's == "it is" or "it has". If it is not one of those two cases, then you should use "its".

"who's" == "who is" or "who has". If it is not one of those two cases, then you should use "whose".

I do have to stop and think sometimes ... but that's probably a good thing :-)


"It's" "who's" is only a contraction for "it has" , "who has" in perfect tenses, not in general.
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Re: Whose/who's and other homophones in English

Postby smallwhite » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:36 am

Josquin wrote:

Yeah, I think we got it now... :roll:


Josquin wrote:I really don't feel like answering an endless string of posts only because I got the pronunciation of "who's" wrong once.


I wasn't addressing you in particular when I looked up the dictionary and then posted my findings.
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Re: Whose/who's and other homophones in English

Postby tarvos » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:55 pm

aaleks wrote:
dampingwire wrote:it's == "it is" or "it has". If it is not one of those two cases, then you should use "its".

"who's" == "who is" or "who has". If it is not one of those two cases, then you should use "whose".

Could there be the third case - it was/who was? I ask as an English-learner :)


You can also use 'twas if you want to sound very old-fashioned and archaic. But it's only done to evoke the Middle Ages and stuff like that.

'Twas a stormy night when... (that's an example of where you'd see it)

To me whose and who's are homophones, but often I let sounds assimilate in speech. This is the real kicker.

Marry and merry are different for me, but Mary and marry are only slightly different (if at all).

I don't have trouble keeping all those other forms apart.
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby Dragon27 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:52 am

Josquin wrote:

Yeah, I think we got it now... :roll:

It is a rather general rule. The grammeme "s" (-s, -es, 's, etc, denoting possessive (a dog's tail), plural (dogs), contraction (the dog's asleep), 3-rd person singular present simple (here it goes!)) is pronounced as /z/ after vowels (laws), diphthongs (goes), voiced consonants (plans), /s/ after voiceless consonants (shops), and /ɪz/ after sibilants s/z/ʃ/tʃ/ʒ/dʒ (dishes, kisses, roses, switches, axes, etc.).
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