Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

[tastyonions]

...the Spanish pronounce the h in el hombre, la habitación, la hora and el hospital.

WHAT?

How does someone who passed a Spanish C2 exam think this?!



The "h" in Spanish words is never pronounced. (Okay, I have heard it in "Sahara," I think, but in words of Latin origin it is always silent).

[s_allard]

...the Spanish pronounce the h in el hombre, la habitación, la hora and el hospital.

WHAT?

How does someone who passed a Spanish C2 exam think this?!



The "h" in Spanish words is never pronounced. (Okay, I have heard it in "Sahara," I think, but in words of Latin origin it is always silent).

I was expecting this. I really should have said that in Spanish the h is the same as the h aspiré as in French that I was talking about.

[Josquin]

[i]This is my Dad’s hat.

A) Das ist der Hut meines Vaters. (Genitive)

I’d never say this in spoken language. Rather I’d say it like this:

B) Das ist der Hut von meinem Vater. OR C) Das ist meinem Vater sein Hut. (both Dative)

You're right about this special construction. In this case, sentence A sounds a bit formal and would probably only be used in writing. However, it would be totally natural to say something like "Das ist Papas Hut" (That's daddy's hat).

Once again, sentence C is overly colloquial or even dialectal. Please don't actively use this construction or you will make a fool out of yourself.

Sentence B is the most neutral one in spoken language. However, in writing, I'd strongly recommend to use sentence A.

Stating the genitive is dead is a gross exaggeration IMHO. I use it every day and it has nothing elitist or snobistic about it. It can have this touch in certain archaic constructions like "Ich war seiner überdrüssig" ("I was fed up with him"), but that's a totally different ballgame.

[s_allard]

...
Cette écriture est illisible

"Un article de France Info s’amuse à réécrire la fameuse Fable de La Fontaine en écriture inclusive : "Maître.sse corbe.au.lle sur un arbre perché tenait en son bec un fromage. Maître.sse renard.e par l'odeur alléché.e lui tint à peu près ce langage". Illisible, incompréhensible même. Sous Windows, on obtient le point du milieu assez difficilement : Alt+0183 et sur Mac Alt+maj+F. En plus d'être illisible, elle complique l’apprentissage du français. Certaines personnes s'inquiètent de voir cette écriture apparaître à l’école. Celle-ci risquerait de “perturber les enfants d'un point de vue orthophonie” relaye France 24..."

https://www.capital.fr/polemik/ecriture ... ts-1247637

Although we are getting slightly off-topic here, this is an interesting point. When some people are against linguistic change they always try to ridicule it and show that it doesn't work because it is cumbersome and ugly. All in the name of keeping the status quo.

I think that l'écriture inclusive is an awkward stop-gap measure that ultimately will lead to the real solution: ABOLISH grammatical gender in French. Trying to make French non-sexist by using both gendered forms when referring to human beings is at best cumbersome. The real solution is to do what English does: no grammatical gender.

This brings me to another point. In the midst of all this discussion about cases and to some extent gender, it is interesting to note that English has neither grammatical gender nor cases. Compared to all the languages mentioned here - except for Indonesian of which I know nothing but that I will put on my bucket list - English is the easiest language to learn despite its horrendous spelling. When you add a simple verb conjugation system, the absence of any regulatory bodies, tolerance of regional variation and openness toward spontaneous evolution, we have all the hallmarks of the dominant natural language for the forseeable future.

[Josquin]

English is the easiest language to learn...

Please don't open that kettle of fish...

[s_allard]

[i]This is my Dad’s hat.

A) Das ist der Hut meines Vaters. (Genitive)

I’d never say this in spoken language. Rather I’d say it like this:

B) Das ist der Hut von meinem Vater. OR C) Das ist meinem Vater sein Hut. (both Dative)

You're right about this special construction. In this case, sentence A sounds a bit formal and would probably only be used in writing. However, it would be totally natural to say something like "Das ist Papas Hut" (That's daddy's hat).

Once again, sentence C is overly colloquial or even dialectal. Please don't actively use this construction or you will make a fool out of yourself.

Sentence B is the most neutral one in spoken language. However, in writing, I'd strongly recommend to use sentence A.

Stating the genitive is dead is a gross exaggeration IMHO. I use it every day and it has nothing elitist or snobistic about it. It can have this touch in certain archaic constructions like "Ich war seiner überdrüssig" ("I was fed up with him"), but that's a totally different ballgame.

I actually like the idea of learning the genitive because it is a mental challenge but I don't want to make a fool of myself by sounding archaic or too formal when everybody around me is using something else.

[Josquin]

I actually like the idea of learning the genitive because it is a mental challenge but I don't want to make a fool of myself by sounding archaic or too formal when everybody around me is using something else.

You won't. You will find there is a healthy mixture between all of these constructions in everyday German. All you would risk by using the genitive is sounding educated. You would definitely not sound archaic though.

If you really want to sound archaic and overly formal, make excessive use of the subjunctive, especially the subjunctive present. That one is dead!

[tarvos]

This calls for a comic about Lojban.

[Cavesa]

This brings me to another point. In the midst of all this discussion about cases and to some extent gender, it is interesting to note that English has neither grammatical gender nor cases. Compared to all the languages mentioned here - except for Indonesian of which I know nothing but that I will put on my bucket list - English is the easiest language to learn despite its horrendous spelling. When you add a simple verb conjugation system, the absence of any regulatory bodies, tolerance of regional variation and openness toward spontaneous evolution, we have all the hallmarks of the dominant natural language for the forseeable future.

This is the problem. This widely spread myth. I have no clue, why are the English natives convinced so strongly about this, they you just find this arrogant stance acceptable. It is not based on truth. Tarvos is right with that joke. Many natives find their native language the easiest. But none but the English ones dare to push that opinion on the rest of the world.

What are the difficult aspects of English:
-the disparity between the written English and the spoken one due to the irregular ortograph. Really, I have never heard a German or Italian learner say they feel as if they were learning two langauges at once. It is a common impression among the English beginners.
-very irregular grammar, often requiring more memorisation than logic. The huge list of irregular verbs is without competition. Or the phrasal verbs. Yes, you can argue many are logical, but that is the point of view of the natives. For a learner required to actively use them, lots of them are just memorisation and an unnecessary complication, since they usually have an equivalent.
-the articles. Many languages don't have them. And from the point of view of a Czech native, they look absolutely unnecessary and redundant, and the argument "but you would be understood without them too" is very common. It is always about the point of view. Learning the articles is hard for many learners.
-Several past tenses. And combining them.
-The word order. It is extremely rigid and requires a lot of training to get used to. Many learners find it hard.

And I could continue. You could actually talk about a large part of this list the same was as about the cases or some of the French spelling rules. Claiming that English is the easiest language to learn and using it all the time as the model the others should follow, instead of insisiting on the continuity with their tradition, that is very narrow minded. It is an extremely priviledged opinion.

And this attitude is spread really widely in the whole ESL industry, and works as yet another weapon in the competition against other languages. It is so sad to see first time learners struggling and putting lots of money into English just because "French/German is harder". This myth plays a major part in their decision what to put money into. Many of them could have learnt French or German faster and cheaper (and have more use for it in the end), but this PR element convinced them otherwise.

[tarvos]

English was the easiest language for me to learn because I was a really young kid when I learned it. So there was no conscious effort involved, except in the latter stages, which is no different from how native speakers would approach it, really.

I always tell people: "Languages are as hard as you imagine them to be."