Daniel N. wrote:reineke wrote:In Croatian there are 7 cases and three genders. Perhaps, instead of conspiring to unravel the very fabric of other languages the speakers of Danish, English and French should work on decluttering their sound inventories.
Actually, very few people in Croatia, likely less than 5%, maintain any difference between the dative and locative case. And dative, locative and instrumental are equal in plural for most people. The rest speak dialects with different case endings than Standard Croatian.
So it's rather 6 cases in singular, 4 in plural (since nominative = vocative in plural). And there are more than 3 genders: masculine is split to animate and inanimate in accusative singular. On the other hand, in genitive plural and dat/loc/ins plural there are no gender distinctions.
But then, there's also a special case of quantified nouns (with adjectives) after numbers 2-4. This is effectively one more case.
The system is not symmetric at all.
There's not much pressure on languages to get simpler. Most languages spoken by hunter-gatherers have really complex grammars. Only in specific circumstances, e.g. making empires with a huge number of L2 speakers, languages simplify.
I should learn Croatian one day.
Vocative is an interesting question. In Croatian, it is the same as nominative in plural.
In Slovak, it has recently died out.
wikipedia wrote:
Vokatív je gramatický pád, ktorým sa hovoriaci obracia na adresáta (teda pád, ktorým sa len oslovuje).
Vokatív zo syntaktického hľadiska (z hľadiska funkcie) existuje prakticky vo všetkých jazykoch, ale vokatív z morfologického hľadiska (z hľadiska tvaru) existuje len v niekoľkých jazykoch (napr. v češtine a v rudimentárnej forme i v slovenčine) a v ostatných sa nahrádza morfologickým nominatívom, či spojením "môj + nominatív" a podobne.[chýba zdroj] Aj v tých jazykoch, ktoré majú pre vokatív zvláštny tvar (napr. v češtine), sa často používa v niektorých prípadoch nominatív. Podobne v jazykoch, ktoré skloňujú s koncovkami, je vokatív často tvorený alebo zvýrazňovaný pomocou rôznych častíc, napríklad latinské "o", talianske "oh", arabské يا alebo pomocou iných prostriedkov, napríklad členom (aramejčina) a podobne.
Vokatív v slovenčine
V slovenčine už vokatív z morfologického hľadiska takmer neexistuje, zachovalo sa iba zopár tvarov, ktoré sa už ale dnes za vokatív nepovažujú (synku, bratku, človeče, chlapče, otče, priateľu, švagre, kmotre, chlape, Bože, majstre, šéfe). Ide o staršie výrazy a staršie a ironické kontexty, iba tvary ako šéfe sú nedávno spätne prebrané z češtiny. Syntaktický vokatív sa realizuje pomocou morfologického nominatívu. V ľudovom - teda nespisovnom - jazyku možno však dnes (azda pod vplyvom angličtiny a/alebo maďarčiny) pozorovať vokatív tvorený koncovkou -i pre vlastné mená a niektorých príbuzných (Paľo - Pali, Zuza - Zuzi, mama - mami, oco - oci, babka - babi), ktorý je však často synonymný so zdrobneným nominatívom (z ktorého zrejme pôvodne aj vznikol).
Zhruba pred 30 rokmi sa ešte na slovenských školách vokatív vyučoval ako existujúci pád (tzv. 5. pád) a slovenčina mala vtedy 7 pádov. Dnes všetky relevantné jazykové príručky a učebnice vokatív za pád (myslí sa samozrejme morfologický pád) nepovažujú. Dodnes sa morfologický vokatív objavuje v liturgických textoch: "Sláva tebe, Bože náš. Pane, zmiluj sa. Otče náš. Kráľu nebeský, Utešiteľu, Duchu pravdy."
the main message in English:
the vocative is the case with which we address someone.
Syntactically (the function of it) exists in all the languages, but a morphological one exists in just a few.
In Slovak, a morphological vocative almost doesn't exist anymore. Only a few examples are left, which are not considered vocative anymore, usually older expressions or in the context of irony (synku-little son, chlapče-boy, kmotre-godfather, Bože-God).
A syntactic vocative is made with morphologic nomiantive. However, vocative with the ending-i is being used in the colloquial language, when it comes to proper names and some of the words for family.
Appropriately 30 years ago, Slovak schools still used to teach the vocative as an existing (fifth) case. These days, none the relevant literature considers it a real morphological case, even though it is still being used in liturgy.
I can see this difference everyday, as part of my classmates are slovak. It felt almost weird at first, to be called in the "wrong" case at first
But what I find the most peculiar is how new this thing is. 30 years, that is not so much.
I am very curious, whether Czech won't lose it too, because the natives are under two kinds of pressure here:
1.Foreign languages. We are getting better at those in general, and almost none of the commonly learnt ones use it.
2.Facebook and similar applications. People these days are exposed to sentences like "Jak se máte, Petr?" "Co se vám honí hlavou, Anna?" every day. It may seem unimportant, but this bit of exposure is in the daily routine of most of us several times a day. And it is not just the vocative. The whole tagging thing means wrong declinations. "Byli jsme v Brně s Radek Novák." instead of s Radkem Novákem (nominative instead of instrumental). Everyone knows it is wrong, but everyone wanting to use the tagging function of facebook has to use it this way. It is not impossible people will gradually stop feeling this as a mistake.
Cainntear wrote:...which brings us back to correctness and correction. I'm all for it, but I just don't believe it can be done if the teacher doesn't know what the student is trying to say. I think I'm better than most at working it out, but when you have truly open opportunities to speak, what the students want to say is often several levels of complexity beyond what they're capable of.
That's why I'm such a big fan of... (not said this in a while)... Michel Thomas's approach. The teacher always knows what the student wants to say, and the student generally wants to say it. (Less so in the MT "method" courses. I never really wanted to say "Do you know where I can buy icons near here?" (RU) or "the ice-cream is delicious" (JA). Similarly, when I tried the Language Transfer stuff, I did feel I was being asked to say stuff that was pretty arbitrary and only included for expository reasons.) Of course, Thomas also prepares you to deal with grammatically complex language, which means you're more likely to be able to say what you actually want to say, rather than just trying to worm your way around it.
Yes, this is very true. We want to tell things beyond our capacity all the time.
There was a discussion some time ago, which discussed this as a very common source of mistakes and their fossilisazion. We learn the linguistic means to say something much much later than we need or want to say it. I would say the French subjunctive is a very common example, with many teachers and courses waiting a few years to introduce it, so the students actually using French get used to using indicative. It is not that hard to make this wrong assumption, as the subjunctive and indicative sound much less different in French than in Spanish (for example). It was hard to relearn it correctly. But this happens with lots and lots of issues. And I am not sure the very restrictive approach, like MT, which limits the things the students might want to say during the class (please correct me, if I am wrong)
This is the main reasons why I am much in favour of learning grammar rather fast (or in better words: without much postponing and beating around the bush). Even on not so useful examples. The contemporary idea that courses should directly teach us "useful" language is problematic, because vast majority of the learners won't want to say those sentences included, whichever sentences get selected. Learning the patterns is the key, so that we get freedom as fast as possible. So, I don't mind being taught stuff like the Duolingo weird sentences (I dislike other stuff about Duolingo). A funny and completely useless example is quite likely to make me learn the pattern and freely apply it on something better next time.
(P.S. "not only" is an odd phrase that still invokes the old "verb second" structure that other Germanic languages retain. In English this means inserting an auxiliary. "Not only do I like it, I even bought the company!" or somesuch.)
Thanks for the correction!
"not only the teacher was shouting all the time,
she insisted on teaching us useless nonsense and not teaching me stuff I would have wanted to say." That's probably a better version.