Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby iguanamon » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:30 pm

s_allard wrote:...This attitude is exactly the source of the problem of unnecessary complexity of French. A bunch of antiquated or ancestral features are maintained in the language simply because they hark back to some bygone era and are maintained alive artificially by a conservative alliance of the various regulatory bodies, ministries of education, book publishers and dictionary makers.
The history of spelling reforms in French is the classic example of resistance to change. The fundamental question of course is 'Why bother changing the spelling at all? One could argue that if people only knew the history of the language better they would understand why certain things are spelled a certain way. There is no need to modernize the spelling; people - especially teachers - need simply to study the history of French more and they wouldn't complain.

I already speak a language with difficult spelling natively. How far does a language take spelling and grammatical reform? Taken to its extreme, French would look like Kreyòl. One of the reasons I was glad to learn Haitian Creole was its phonetic spelling- learn the pronunciation and you can spell it and lack of conjugation, which is taken care of with verb + particle. Creole languages tend to get down to the essentials and eliminate grammatical features that are too "complicated". So do constructed languages like interlingua, for one.
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby Cainntear » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:58 pm

Iversen wrote:The accord leads by definition to redundant information and lays a burden on the language users, so by ordinary darwinian standards it would have been weeded out long ago - or never have survived in the first place when somebody tried to introduce it. And why don't all languages be alike in this respect? If cases and gender have a purpose why don't all languages then have them? If not, why do some have them? On the other hand, once grammatical distinctions are established the tend to live a life of their own, and then funny things can happen which defy simple utilitarian logic.

Darwinianism accepts that all sorts of elements of the environment create evolutiontary pressures though, surely...?

For redundancy in language, the evolutionary advantage is one of fault tolerance. For example, if there was no redundancy in language, it would be almost impossible to understand whispered speech as the voice cues are missing.

As for the purposes of case and gender, the biological analogue would have to be vestigial organs. A kiwi still has wings of a sort, even if they are so small that they're hidden in the general plumage of the bird, and even a human foetus shows signs of developing gills. We have tonsils and tailbones and appendices. We don't need any of these, but they're just there because they were useful to our distant ancestors. It doesn't matter all that much to us now what they used to be used for -- they're there, like it or not.
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby galaxyrocker » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:14 pm

Cainntear wrote:
As for the purposes of case and gender, the biological analogue would have to be vestigial organs. A kiwi still has wings of a sort, even if they are so small that they're hidden in the general plumage of the bird, and even a human foetus shows signs of developing gills. We have tonsils and tailbones and appendices. We don't need any of these, but they're just there because they were useful to our distant ancestors. It doesn't matter all that much to us now what they used to be used for -- they're there, like it or not.



I'm not sure I like this analogy. Vestigial organs aren't needed at all, and there's really nothing analogous to them to replace them. With things like case, though, it's been replaced with word order. One of the two would be needed -- either a strict word order to imply the relationships of the words , or cases to do it.
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby Iversen » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:25 pm

I see two opposite pressures in linguistics: the most important is probably the laziness of the speakers, but in some cases it does indeed seem that the very same speakers add as many complications as they can deal with. Or at least they accept that certain sound changes result in a mess, and there is no collective push to find ways to deal with the problems - except when the language users simply give up en bloc and discard something they find too complicated.

For instance it would be much easier for everybody including native speakers of Latin if all Latin case endings were unique and easy to recognize, but for instance in the 1. conjugation of nouns and adjectives we find the ending "ae" in several places. Who benefitted from that? The "ae"'s may have developed from different forms in an even earlier proto version of Latin (I haven't studied the prehistory of that language), but why didn't the ancient Romans invent ways to keep them separate? They actually did something, but much later, and that was simply to drop a large part of the morphology (and much of the syntax too), and the result is known as the Romance languages. I see this as some kind of Darwinian selection, where something dies out.

Languages develops because certain errors against all expectations become so popular that they replace existing words or patterns. And nobody promised you that errors would be neither systematic nor logical - and least of all if the error in question consists in a contrived way of mispronouncing certain sounds.

As for redundancy: it may help people to understand whispering and badly recorded speech, but I see that as a side effect that doesn't explain the nature of the redundancies. Let's take an example, namely the sentence "M..cus stult.. est". Oh yes, I know that the stupid person has a name from the 2. declension, but I don't know who it is. On the other hand, if the endings disappeared ("Marc.. stult.. est") I could be fairly that the poor fellow was named Marcus. Apart from that, the argument that the endings help you to understand sentence structures is true, and to get heads and tails out of Latin poetry and artsy writing like the speeches and letters of mister Cicero it may be necessary to study the endings. But it is very unlikely that people in the streets of Rome used such complicated sentence structures when they discussed among themselves, and when I look at modern Russian or German texts most sentences use a fairly strict and welldefined word order which makes the information contained in the endings less crucial. There are of course counter examples (some of which have been constructed for the purpose), but I would get more information from a Russian text without the endings than from one without the roots.

But please keep the endings, dear Russians. Otherwise things like tempus and aspect will become invisible. It is hard enough to understand how you can live happy lives without definite and indefinite articles.

And finally: how did biological gender end up as grammatical gender, which in many cases goes squarely against the biological facts (like German Mädchens who are neutrum beings)? I just say that the idea to have a distinction must have occurred because women and men looked at each other and noted that there was a difference, and that it was important. And then they found a way to express this in language - let's just for fun say that all female names got an -a at the end and all male names got -us (and yes, I know that this is Latin and not whatever markers the first speakers used). But then somebody looked at a baobab tree or a stone and wondered what gender that thing might have, and from there everything went wrong.
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby reineke » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:44 am

"Proto-Indo-European (PIE) is the linguistic reconstruction of the hypothetical common ancestor of the Indo-European languages, the most widely spoken language family in the world.

PIE had an elaborate system of morphology that included inflectional suffixes as well as ablaut (vowel alterations, for example, as preserved in English sing, sang, sung) and accent. PIE nominals and pronouns had a complex system of declension, and verbs similarly had a complex system of conjugation.

PIE is estimated to have been spoken as a single language from 4,500 B.C.E. to 2,500 B.C.E. during the Neolithic Age, though estimates vary by more than a thousand years...

Noun
Proto-Indo-European nouns are declined for eight or nine cases....

There were three grammatical genders:

masculine
feminine
neuter"

Wikip.

The Evolution of Case Systems for Marking Event Structure

"Case has fascinated linguists for centuries without however revealing its most important secrets. This paper offers operational explanations for case through language game experiments in which autonomous agents describe real-world events to each other. The experiments demonstrate (a) why a language may develop a case system, (b) how a population can self-organize a case system, and (c) why and how an existing case system may take on new functions in a language."

Why Do Some Languages Evolve a Case System?

Among the many functions exhibited by case systems across the world’s languages, the most widespread one (and the one investigated here) is to mark event structure (‘who does what to whom’). Almost every language in the world has developed some grammatical system for marking the relations between events (e.g. a give-event) and the participants that play a role in those events."

The Apparent Complexity of ‘Event Structure Grammars’

One striking puzzle in language evolution is why ‘event structure grammars’ such as case evolve such a degree of complexity if it is perfectly possible to communicate successfully without marking the relations between events and their participants (Gil, 2008). For example, some languages such as Lisu (Li & Thompson, 1976) or Riau Indonesian (Gil, 2002) have no or very few grammatical means for indicating event structure. Such languages use lexical items in an associative manner.

Indeed, language is an inferential coding system (Sperber & Wilson, 1986) in which not all information is explicit in the message, but in which the language user is assumed to be intelligent enough to infer a suitable meaning from the context. So without any clear communicative justification for the degree of grammatical complexity observed in natural languages (Gil, 2008), many explanations for case resort to biological constraints and innate learning biases (Müller, 2002; Moy, 2006) or simply historical accidents (Carstairs-McCarthy, 2004). However, so far none of these theories have been able to demonstrate how a case system may evolve.

The selective advantage of a language system can be investigated by contrasting the linguistic performance of a population that employs the system to a population that has to make do without it. This section compares the performance of a population of agents that are equipped with the German case system to a population that communicates through a lexical Pidgin language...

The speakers of Pidgin German, who are deprived of a case system, have no explicit linguistic way of expressing event structure. Instead, they communicate through associative utterances consisting of lexical items...

As can be seen in the chart, the speakers of Pidgin German always need to make additional inferences, which leads to an average cognitive effort of about 50%. The population of German speakers, on the other hand, reduce this baseline effort to a minimum of zero in their interactions. Case therefore has a clear selective advantage for communication: it reduces the cognitive effort needed for semantic interpretation...

So what is the selective advantage of a grammatical over an idiosyncratic case strategy? The answer is expressivity and learnability. Figure 4 uses the relation between the number of cases and the number of meanings they are able to express as an indicator for both linguistic pressures. The X-axis represents the number of participant roles that the agents need to express and the Y-axis shows the number of cases that a language needs for expressing those participant roles. As can be seen, the German case system stays stable at four cases despite a growing meaning space and can potentially handle an infinite number of participant roles. For the lexical language that uses names for each new participant role, however, the number of cases is directly proportional to the number of meanings that need to be expressed, hence we see linear growth as the meaning space expands...

How Can a Population Self-Organize a Case System?

The previous section illustrated why languages may develop a case system by demonstrating the selective advantages of such a system for communication. Now that the selective pressures are identified, the next step is to show how a population can develop a shared case system..."

https://www.csl.sony.fr/downloads/paper ... jp-12a.pdf
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby galaxyrocker » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:14 am

Iversen wrote:I see two opposite pressures in linguistics: the most important is probably the laziness of the speakers, but in some cases it does indeed seem that the very same speakers add as many complications as they can deal with. Or at least they accept that certain sound changes result in a mess, and there is no collective push to find ways to deal with the problems - except when the language users simply give up en bloc and discard something they find too complicated.


Except that's the thing. It has nothing to do with the laziness of the speakers. It has everything to do with sound changes causing some forms to merge, other forms becoming preferred, paradigms being regularized (my dialect of English, for instance, has regularized negative "do" to "don't", and past tense "be" to "was", for all persons (among other things) -- "he don't need nothing", "we was (often "we's") just leavin'"), or grammaticalization happening making a preposition into a case ending, for instance. It really has nothing to do with laziness though, and language changes slowly shift through a population. Apart from taboo instances, I'm not aware of a single instance of users giving up "en bloc" to discard something they find too complicated. A lot of times they didn't even realize it was going until it was already gone; it certainly wasn't a conscious decision of the speakers of my dialect to regularize their past tense paradigm, for instance.

For instance it would be much easier for everybody including native speakers of Latin if all Latin case endings were unique and easy to recognize, but for instance in the 1. conjugation of nouns and adjectives we find the ending "ae" in several places. Who benefitted from that? The "ae"'s may have developed from different forms in an even earlier proto version of Latin (I haven't studied the prehistory of that language), but why didn't the ancient Romans invent ways to keep them separate? They actually did something, but much later, and that was simply to drop a large part of the morphology (and much of the syntax too), and the result is known as the Romance languages. I see this as some kind of Darwinian selection, where something dies out.


Except it doesn't necessarily work as Darwinian selection, as it has nothing to do with what's better suited to an environment or what's simpler. It's just random sound changes that then spread through a population for various reasons (conquest, prestige, etc.) The case endings in Latin just eventually collapsed together, through various sound changes and other syntactical features taking their place. The "dropping" of the morphology and syntax didn't happen overnight. It was a process that took centuries and occurred slowly. And other, just as complicated, structures arose in their place to compensate for it.

Languages develops because certain errors against all expectations become so popular that they replace existing words or patterns. And nobody promised you that errors would be neither systematic nor logical - and least of all if the error in question consists in a contrived way of mispronouncing certain sounds.


This is just a normal sound change. It's only an error in-so-far as you assume there's one version of the language that is "correct". Sounds change one generation to the next and it spreads (again, through conquest, prestige, etc.). It's not a "contrived way of mispronouncing" it -- it's quite literally the correct way in that group's dialect.

As for redundancy: it may help people to understand whispering and badly recorded speech, but I see that as a side effect that doesn't explain the nature of the redundancies. Let's take an example, namely the sentence "M..cus stult.. est". Oh yes, I know that the stupid person has a name from the 2. declension, but I don't know who it is. On the other hand, if the endings disappeared ("Marc.. stult.. est") I could be fairly that the poor fellow was named Marcus. Apart from that, the argument that the endings help you to understand sentence structures is true, and to get heads and tails out of Latin poetry and artsy writing like the speeches and letters of mister Cicero it may be necessary to study the endings. But it is very unlikely that people in the streets of Rome used such complicated sentence structures when they discussed among themselves, and when I look at modern Russian or German texts most sentences use a fairly strict and welldefined word order which makes the information contained in the endings less crucial. There are of course counter examples (some of which have been constructed for the purpose), but I would get more information from a Russian text without the endings than from one without the roots.


How many possible names are there that would fill that ending? And, assuming that the ending didn't exist and you misheard the same part you'd have "M... stult ... est", which gives you less information than the part where you do hear the ending. And it has more to do with just whispering an recorded speech. Spanish has, for instance, several words that differ only in gender. Let's say you miss the referent, or the article the first time around (for instance, you came in late to a conversation). But you pick it up when the speaker uses the article later and you can infer what they're talking about. For instance, say you walk in on two of your friends talking about bands, and you hear "... batería ... la". You'd know one of two things (a) they weren't talking about bands but about batteries or (b) they were talking about a band with a female drummer. It clarifies a lot, and that's precisely the redundancy at work.

As to word order, it still is flexible, and, even if there is a preferred one, it can be moved and is by speakers at times.


And finally: how did biological gender end up as grammatical gender, which in many cases goes squarely against the biological facts (like German Mädchens who are neutrum beings)? I just say that the idea to have a distinction must have occurred because women and men looked at each other and noted that there was a difference, and that it was important. And then they found a way to express this in language - let's just for fun say that all female names got an -a at the end and all male names got -us (and yes, I know that this is Latin and not whatever markers the first speakers used). But then somebody looked at a baobab tree or a stone and wondered what gender that thing might have, and from there everything went wrong.


This is a conflation of two words, to be honest. Gender was originally used similar to "genre" to refer to a class, and originally referred to just two "kinds", an didn't really take on its current role until after the eroticization of the word "sex" in the 20th century... well after "gender" had been used as a name for noun classes. It's best to completely delink the two concepts when you discuss noun classes, as the two/three gender system is fairly uncommon (it's widespread simply because of Indo-European languages). Bantu languages, for instance, are known to have upwards of 20 genders. But, as to how words came to be grouped that way: usually because of similar sounds. So the word ended the same, which caused an article to take on the same allophone, etc. Eventually the allophones split into grammaticalized words associated with that gender. Then semantic broadening could've happened, or a collapse of groups of genders (see: PIE's 3 merging to 2, as mentioned by reineke).

And that also precisely explains your example of Mädchen being a neuter noun -- it's the diminutive, and, in German, diminutives are all neuter nouns. They're not grouped by biological gender, but based on sound and original grammatical roles. It's the same with cailín, girl, being masculine in Irish. the diminutive -ín ending makes a word masculine, so therefore cailín is. Which should show that gender is more governed by sounds that by any perceived connection to natural gender (doubly so since you'd still use the feminine pronoun when talking about a cailín in Irish).
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby reineke » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:06 am

"Cross-linguistic studies of early vocabulary acquisition have shown that despite a general similarity in developmental patterns, different languages are learned at different rates. Danish-learning children, for instance, lag behind a number of other languages in their receptive vocabulary development...

This finding has generally been attributed to the complex phonetic structure of Danish, characterized by a uniquely large inventory of vowel-like sounds."

Croatian-Danish vowels.jpg


http://findresearcher.sdu.dk/portal/en/ ... a3618b8381).html

"There are no case declensions in Danish nouns. Nouns are inflected only for possession which is expressed with a possessive enclitic, for example min fars hus "my father's house".

In Croatian there are 7 cases and three genders. Perhaps, instead of conspiring to unravel the very fabric of other languages the speakers of Danish, English and French should work on decluttering their sound inventories.
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby Iversen » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:07 am

I can't but agree with Reineke: Danish pronunciation is a problem even for Danish babies. But like the British Anglophones, who lie on the same miserable level, we do catch up. One thing that makes me suspicious about the diagram is that the budding speakers of American English lie far ahead of those who (with time) are going to learn to speak British English. Actually the differences in the dialects they have to learn aren't big enough to explan that difference, and if there are hidden factors that cause it there may all sorts of explanations for the low initial speed of learning for Danish and British kids - inclusive the attitude and methods of the researchers who counted words learned.

Btw I'm not quite happy about the use of "conspiring to unravel the fabric of other languages" in the last lines of Reineke's message. I have never tried to claim that Danish is a model language and Croatian a mess (or the like). All languages are a mixture of order and weird exceptions, but the distrribution is different, and I actually don't see a long list of cases as a problem. I do however see confused and partly overlapping endings and unclear criteria for assigning words to different declensing patterns as problems (for learners).

The diagram does however show that it can't a serious disadvantage to have many cases. Once you have learnt to speak a language it must be important for the speed of learning how to write it whether it has a simple and logical orthography, and the Danish one is not as bad as you might think, compared to the English one. Danish has basically a two-tier pronunciation system: if we speak slowly and carefully, then the orthography is fairly reasonable. But we mostly speak in a fairly slurry and careless way, and this brings me to one of the words galaxyrocker objects to: laziness.

The words in Proto-Nordic were almost twice as long as those in Modern Danish, and they have been cut down in several stages. You can blame it on some kind of impersonal wear and tear, but I have referred it to something I call laziness (the tongue-in-cheek should be visible here!). The irony is that the developments it leads to may make the language less regular - in the sense that complex, but regular patterns are replaced by simpler, but less regular ones. It may also lead to the disapparing of whole sections of the grammar. Galaxyrocker seems not to see such examples, but I see them everywhere - like in the reduction in the number of (grammatical) cases seen in most Western Europan languages.

As for the gender distinction we seem to agree that it started out as a question of genre - but then a genre based on biology spread to areas where it didn't really fit, and then the distinction became grammaticalized and caused the appearence af declensions mainly based on the form of the words, but still influenced by a tendency to group similar things. So diminutives in German all came to be seen as neutra, even those that refer to female beings. And on top of that haphazard sound changes ran over the systems as a bulldozer again and again, and we all know the result. I did know that some languages (like Swahili) have genres rather than gender, but that doesn't come as a surprise. Such a situation is also known from Bahasa Indonesia, which doesn't have genre/gender as such, but uses a number of quantifiers when you count things - like one for small round objects and another for animals. The question is whether the allocation of concrete words to the available genres is any more consistent in those languages than the allocation to words in Indoeuropean languages is to our gender based systems (which may even have lost the original sex distinction - like Danish, where we have 'common gender' (utrum) and 'intetkøn' (neutrum)).
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby reineke » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:07 pm

Iversen wrote:I can't but agree with Reineke: Danish pronunciation is a problem even for Danish babies. But like the British Anglophones, who lie on the same miserable level, we do catch up. .

Btw I'm not quite happy about the use of "conspiring to unravel the fabric of other languages" in the last lines of Reineke's message. I have never tried to claim that Danish is a model language and Croatian a mess (or the like). All languages are a mixture of order and weird exceptions, but the distrribution is different, and I actually don't see a long list of cases as a problem. I do however see confused and partly overlapping endings and unclear criteria for assigning words to different declensing patterns as problems (for learners).

The diagram does however show that it can't a serious disadvantage to have many cases. Once you have learnt to speak a language it must be important for the speed of learning how to write it whether it has a simple and logical orthography, and the Danish one is not as bad as you might think, compared to the English one. Danish has basically a two-tier pronunciation system: if we speak slowly and carefully, then the orthography is fairly reasonable. But we mostly speak in a fairly slurry and careless way, and this brings me to one of the words galaxyrocker objects to: laziness....


Ah, yes. They catch up. Then they go to school. Apologies for answering with citations.

Orthography as a handicap? A direct comparison of spelling acquisition in Danish and Icelandic.

Spelling of cross-linguistically very similar nonwords was compared in 115 Danish and 77 Icelandic children (primarily 3rd and 4th graders). Danish children made more errors than Icelandic children on word medial consonant doublets and on word initial consonant clusters, even when the groups compared were matched on simpler spelling tasks. These results suggest that the acquisition of phonemic encoding skills is slower in "deep" orthography such as Danish than in more "transparent" orthography such as Icelandic..."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15842417/

First- and Second-Language Learnability Explained by Orthographic Depth and Orthographic Learning: A “Natural” Scandinavian Experiment

Effects of orthographic depth on orthographic learning ability were examined in 10- to 13-year-old children who learnt to read in similar orthographies differing in orthographic depth, defined as consistency of grapheme-to-phoneme correspondences. Danish children who learnt to read a deep orthography underperformed their Swedish counterparts who acquired a shallow orthography on vocabulary, phonological working memory, orthographic learning ability, and a range of first-language (L1: Danish/Swedish) and second-language (L2: English as a foreign language) measures. Orthographic learning ability explained over and above vocabulary and phonological working memory the better performance of Swedish children in comparison with Danish children on L1 reading accuracy and fluency, spelling, and visual word familiarity. With respect to L2 learning, orthographic learning ability determined spelling and visual word familiarity over and above L2 vocabulary and phonological working memory. It is concluded that shallow orthographies promote orthographic learning ability more efficiently than deep orthographies.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... ode=hssr20

"In shallow orthographies, the spelling-sound correspondence is direct: from the rules of pronunciation, one is able to pronounce the word correctly.[1] In other words, shallow (transparent) orthographies, also called phonemic orthographies, have a one-to-one relationship between its graphemes and phonemes, and the spelling of words is very consistent. Such examples include Spanish, Italian, Finnish, and Turkish.

According to the orthographic depth hypothesis, shallow orthographies are more easily able to support a word recognition process that involves the language phonology. In contrast, deep orthographies encourage a reader to process printed words by referring to their morphology via the printed word's visual-orthographic structure.[2] For languages with relatively deep orthographies such as English, French, Arabic or Hebrew, new readers have much more difficulty learning to decode words. As a result, children learn to read more slowly.[3] For languages with relatively shallow orthographies, such as Italian and Finnish, new readers have few problems learning to decode words. As a result, children learn to read relatively quickly.[3]"

"In an ideal phonemic orthography, there would be a complete one-to-one correspondence (bijection) between the graphemes (letters) and the phonemes of the language, and each phoneme would invariably be represented by its corresponding grapheme.

A disputed example of an ideally phonemic orthography is the Serbo-Croatian language. In its alphabet (Latin as well as Serbian Cyrillic alphabet), there are 30 graphemes, each uniquely corresponding to one of the phonemes."

Wikipedia
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Re: Grammatical Cases: Why are they considered so hard?

Postby Cainntear » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:23 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
As for the purposes of case and gender, the biological analogue would have to be vestigial organs. A kiwi still has wings of a sort, even if they are so small that they're hidden in the general plumage of the bird, and even a human foetus shows signs of developing gills. We have tonsils and tailbones and appendices. We don't need any of these, but they're just there because they were useful to our distant ancestors. It doesn't matter all that much to us now what they used to be used for -- they're there, like it or not.



I'm not sure I like this analogy. Vestigial organs aren't needed at all, and there's really nothing analogous to them to replace them. With things like case, though, it's been replaced with word order. One of the two would be needed -- either a strict word order to imply the relationships of the words , or cases to do it.

There are stages of atrophy, though.
Wings are for flight. Chickens can only "fly" enough to reach a roost. Ostriches use their wings to balance themselves when they're running. Kiwis have little stubs.

Many languages have "vestigial" cases, typically in pronouns. English would work fine without he/him, she/her etc -- see it/it and you/you. They're completely redundant -- they serve no practical purpose.

The cases in German are still alive, in that they have direct meaning. It's not a vestigial case system... but it is essentially redundant as the syntax is pretty much unambiguous already (or so others have said).

But it's much clearer with gender. Modern European languages have gender because their ancestors did. There is no real value to gender within the languages themselves -- it's just there and not going away.
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