German language change trend

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
Josquin
Blue Belt
Posts: 646
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:38 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: German (native); English (advanced fluency); French (basic fluency); Italian, Swedish, Russian, Irish (intermediate); Dutch, Icelandic, Japanese, Portuguese, Scottish Gaelic (beginner); Latin, Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Sanskrit (reading only)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=737
x 1764

Re: German language change trend

Postby Josquin » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:45 am

I agree the German language is changing, but as aokoye points it out, this is totally normal language change.

Also, most of these changes aren't even considered to be "correct" German yet. You can neither exchange the dative for the accusative nor "einen" for "ein" in the standard language, i.e. what you use at work, in school, or for university. And nobody will dare to write down "dem... sein" instead of "dessen". A lot of people even overuse the genitive with prepositions that normally require the dative, so we also have instances of hypercorrectness. All of this indicates the case system is moving, but not yet collapsing. We might one day have the same situation as in Dutch where the case system has already collapsed, but this day is still far away.

Is this a reason for grief? Yes and no! Of course, if you're an educated speaker of Hochdeutsch you frown upon all these simplifications, but educated academics aren't the only speakers of the language. If there had been no language change, there would be no Romance languages today and everybody would still be speaking Latin instead. The topos that the young are corrupted and everything is only getting worse is as old as Socrates by the way, which means elderly people have been complaning about change for thousands of years. It's just the way things go.

That culture and fine arts seem to be in a crisis and that the average niveau in society seems to be sinking, is a whole different story than language change, by the way. And, hey, even Goethe didn't speak Hochdeutsch. He had a Hessian dialect as some of his rhymes show ("Neige, du Schmerzensreiche..."). So, German isn't quite dead yet.
11 x
Oró, sé do bheatha abhaile! Anois ar theacht an tsamhraidh.

User avatar
Saim
Blue Belt
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:14 pm
Location: Rheinland
Languages: Native: English
Others: Catalan, Serbian, Spanish, Polish, Hungarian, Urdu, French etc.
Main focus: German
x 2314

Re: German language change trend

Postby Saim » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:51 am

Case reduction is extremely common among inflecting languages, it has nothing to do with social media of all things.
4 x
log

شجرِ ممنوع 152

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: German language change trend

Postby Speakeasy » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:19 pm

As evidenced by the example that I appended, which relates specifically to changes to the German language as evidenced some forty years ago, it should be clear that I am aware of, and sensitive to, the process of change.

Nevertheless, as a more general matter, at the moment that one experiences the loss of something cherished, the knowledge that the event was inevitable is of little comfort. Reminders of the ineluctability of the process are seldom welcomed and can often appear as insensitive, expressions of enjoyment at the process of destruction and renewal even more so.

I appreciate that I am digressing here. But, it’s Sunday, I’ve just had my coffee and I’m feeling the caffeine rush.

EDITED:
Tinkering.
2 x

User avatar
Random Review
Green Belt
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:41 pm
Location: UK/Spain/China
Languages: En (N), Es (int), De (pre-int), Pt (pre-int), Zh-CN (beg), El (beg), yid (beg)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 75#p123375
x 919

Re: German language change trend

Postby Random Review » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:42 pm

Speakeasy wrote:As evidenced by the example that I appended, which relates specifically to changes to the German language as evidenced some forty years ago, it should be clear that I am aware of, and sensitive to, the process of change.

Nevertheless, as a more general matter, at the moment that one experiences the loss of something cherished, the knowledge that the event was inevitable is of little comfort. Reminders of the ineluctability of the process are seldom welcomed and can often appear as insensitive, expressions of enjoyment at the process of destruction and renewal even more so.

I appreciate that I am digressing here. But, it’s Sunday, I’ve just had my coffee and I’m feeling the caffeine rush.

EDITED:
Tinkering.


Yeah, I actually get it, mate; of all the languages I have tried to learn, German is the one I am in love with. It is sad to see something beautiful slowly passing away, whether it be structures in a language or everything else in life that is the same. I think your feelings are legitimate.
The consolation is that new beautiful and expressive structures are also always being born in any language. I honestly feel you maybe gloss over this point. Don't just look only at the sad side of language change. Feel the joy of new structures too!

Take the way people in the UK write "of" with certain conditional sentences* . The "'ve" in contractions like I'd've is being reanalysed in many speakers' minds as "of": I'd of.

I'd of done it if I'd had time

If you love the beauty of the older (still standard) system, this may seem horrific to you.

I would do it --> I'd do it
I would have done it --> I would've done it/I'd have done it
(or colloquially) I'd've done it.

This is indeed quite a beautiful system; but watch what you can do with the new (clitic?) "of" in very colloquial British English.

I'd of done it if I'd of had time.

I find the symmetry of this also quite beautiful. I have no idea if it will ever be accepted enough to become part of the standard language in the future, but it might and it's also beautiful like the current standard.

* Disclaimer: I read a blog post on this by Cainntear years ago and no longer remember his analysis, only my own views that have been formed after reading his. Any interesting ideas in this example are probably from his blog post and any nonsense is almost certainly down to my misremembering or misinterpreting his ideas.
1 x
German input 100 hours by 30-06: 4 / 100
Spanish input 200 hours by 30-06: 0 / 200
German study 50 hours by 30-06: 3 / 100
Spanish study 200 hours by 30-06: 0 / 200
Spanish conversation 100 hours by 30-06: 0 / 100

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3309
Contact:

Re: German language change trend

Postby aokoye » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:59 pm

Speakeasy wrote:As evidenced by the example that I appended, which relates specifically to changes to the German language as evidenced some forty years ago, it should be clear that I am aware of, and sensitive to, the process of change.

Nevertheless, as a more general matter, at the moment that one experiences the loss of something cherished, the knowledge that the event was inevitable is of little comfort. Reminders of the ineluctability of the process are seldom welcomed and can often appear as insensitive, expressions of enjoyment at the process of destruction and renewal even more so.

I appreciate that I am digressing here. But, it’s Sunday, I’ve just had my coffee and I’m feeling the caffeine rush.

EDITED:
Tinkering.

Here's why I posted in this thread to begin with. The idea that language change is somehow making the language "worse" is elitist at best. I get that some people, you included, find it sad that language changes. While I find that interesting, that you and others think that language change is sad, I know that that is not the only view of language change. Never mind that the trope is often used as in, "children these days..." sort of way. I also think that the "language change is bad" point of view opens the stage for oppressing of various groups of people ("why should we use X word to refer to these people and not Y word?" among other situations). I have seen this happen.

So yea, my original post was in no way targeted at you specifically as you hadn't posted in the thread (never mind, scrolling back it looks like you had, however my post still wasn't informed by yours). My second post in which I quoted you had more to do with "all not some" than anything else.

From the OP
online media, social networking, TV shows, etc. are making German less pure

What does "less pure" even mean here and why would one assume that this is a situation new enough to have only happened since the dawn of electronic media?

But don't mind me - while caffeine doesn't affect me in such a way that it gives me energy and the last time I had coffee was 7 or 8 hours ago, I do have way too much energy right now.

edit because apparently I didn't see this:
Are you saying that language change is a destruction of the language? If so why?
1 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: German language change trend

Postby Speakeasy » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:38 pm

aokoye wrote: ... I also think that the "language change is bad" point of view opens the stage for oppressing of various groups of people ...
I believe that it should be fairly clear that my comments in this discussion thread have centered on the esthetic appeal of languages at various stages of their development and the feelings of loss associated with the perceived decline from an ideal, which I freely admit does not exist, has never existed, and will never exist.

To reiterate, I merely pointed out that, according the magazine STERN, some people deplored certain types of changes to the German language some forty years ago. In addition, I very clearly recognized that this was a continuing process and, through the use of irony, I provided an example indicating that the English language had been undergoing similar changes (where art thou?).

At no time did I say that "language change is bad", nor did I denigrate "various groups of people" for their use of language. While I suppose that we all share the right to digress, I find that the use of my comments as a basis for turning this into political discussion (viz., "opens the stage for oppressing of various groups of people") is totally inappropriate.
6 x

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3309
Contact:

Re: German language change trend

Postby aokoye » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:59 pm

Speakeasy wrote:
aokoye wrote: ... I also think that the "language change is bad" point of view opens the stage for oppressing of various groups of people ...
I believe that it should be fairly clear that my comments in this discussion thread have centered on the esthetic appeal of languages at various stages of their development and the feelings of loss associated with the perceived decline from an ideal, which I freely admit does not exist, has never existed, and will never exist.

To reiterate, I merely pointed out that, according the magazine STERN, some people deplored certain types of changes to the German language some forty years ago. In addition, I very clearly recognized that this was a continuing process and, through the use of irony, I provided an example indicating that the English language had been undergoing similar changes (where art thou?).

At no time did I say that "language change is bad", nor did I denigrate "various groups of people" for their use of language. While I suppose that we all share the right to digress, I find that the use of my comments as a basis for turning this into political discussion (viz., "opens the stage for oppressing of various groups of people") is totally inappropriate.

I think you're taking my post slightly, or perhaps largely, more personally than it actually was. I never said that you said that language change was bad. Meanwhile the subtitle of title of the article in die Zeit, which is what really caught my attention, was "Nicht nur der Genitiv stirbt: Die Deutschen sprechen immer schlechter Deutsch. Sie vereinfachen gnadenlos und pfeifen auf korrekten Satzbau" (bolding mine)
I didn't turn your comments into anything revolving around oppression, rather (again) I was concerned with the subtitle of the article and mentioned that the trope can be and has been used to excuse oppressive language. I wouldn't class that statement on it's own as political but if you would then so be it. I also agreed that we had some similar views (we know that language change happens) and said that I don't share some of your views but I'm not going to try to pretend to say that you don't have those views.

So yeah - it seems that you think we're disagreeing way more than we actually are.

Edit: In my most previous post to this I responded to one of your posts. I will concede that you might not actually have been talking about, in part or in whole, me in that post and if that's the case then my bad.
1 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6093
Contact:

Re: German language change trend

Postby tarvos » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:10 pm

Purity is always subjective. Purity with respect to what? All things that flourish are mixes, purity and pure-blood systems are bound to falter without fresh ideas. German is the way it is because it intermixed and took words from other languages. English is only a shadow of its roots, because we don't speak Anglish anymore.

And I would like to see the first puritanistic person trying to get rid of all foreign influences in Dutch, it would be HILARIOUS.
3 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: German language change trend

Postby Speakeasy » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:53 pm

@aokoye, the use of quotations is becoming rather burdensome in this thread and, while I share part of the responsibility, I'll start anew for this round ...

So then, we agree that all living languages change; however, we differ as to our reactions to the results of this admittedly ineluctable process. You seem to ascribe motives of an unhealthy and suspect "elitism" to those who just happen to prefer the esthetic appeal, or intrinsic qualities, of certain aspects of language and you seem willing to make the charge that this must lead to the oppression of certain groups of people. I disagree. Here's why:

I would assume that you have your own tastes in food, wines, music, the visual and performing arts, literature, architecture, and many other fields of human endeavor and cultural expression. I do, too! As an example, I prefer automobile designs dating from the mid-1920's through the mid-1960's. I find them esthetically more pleasing than those of the 1990's and afterwards. This preference does not prevent me from understanding the justification (aerodynamic efficiency) for the more modern designs. I understand and accept the underlying concepts, but I deplore the uniform blandness of the results. This same question of "tastes" can be extended to include one's preferences in language...

Yes, I freely admit that some people will use any "marker" they can find so as to exclude, isolate, mistreat, abuse, persecute and otherwise oppress individuals and groups of individuals ... "où il y a de l'homme, il y a de l'hommerie." (Saint François de Sales). Nevertheless, I do not believe that an otherwise innocuous preference for the status quo in any domain (and what an impossibility that is!) should be automatically interpreted as being indicative of an oppressive, reactionary, rear-guard opposition to legitimate, necessary, and unstoppable change.

Sorry, what were we talking about?
6 x

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3309
Contact:

Re: German language change trend

Postby aokoye » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:31 pm

Speakeasy wrote:So then, we agree that all living languages change; however, we differ as to our reactions to the results of this admittedly ineluctable process. You seem to ascribe motives of an unhealthy and suspect "elitism" to those who just happen to prefer the esthetic appeal, or intrinsic qualities, of certain aspects of language and you seem willing to make the charge that this must lead to the oppression of certain groups of people. I disagree.....

Good try but no, you're off the mark. I think that calling change bad can easily be classed as elitist. Again I was referring to the subtitle of the article which didn't actually say anything about being sad that change was happening because of xyz reason that you listed in your replies to me. Like I said earlier, you appear to be taking this more personally than it actually was.
0 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests