I’ve had two thoughts floating around in my head about pronunciation recently, and I wanted to see what forum members think about them. As far as second language skills go, I think it’s special, and here’s why.
1) Adult learners rarely if ever achieve native-like pronunciation in foreign languages. For all other skills, while not easy, it appears to be far more common to reach a native-like level.
2) Fossilized pronunciation errors seem to be more resistant to reversal than errors in other skills.
Someone on this board once said they don’t believe in fossilized errors, and asked if you’re just starting to learn a language, how can your errors be fossilized? It’s a good point, and I think the mind is quite plastic in the beginning stages of learning, meaning it’s not terribly difficult to reverse errors. But the longer you repeat errors, the harder it is to fix them. I’ve been thinking that there maybe some sort of a cut-of line, or cut off range. For example, if you make the same wrong word selection once in a while for a period of a year or less, it might be quite easy to fix, but if it’s been more than 5 years, it may be impossible. I’ve made these numbers up, and of course I have no hard evidence to support them. Just a theory based on personal experience, things I’ve read and see others experience.
For me, pronunciation seems to be the most sensitive skill. The plastic period seems shorter. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that being diligent about correct pronunciation from the beginning will allow you to achieve a near-native like level. I’m just saying that failure to do it will keep you from reaching your highest possible level in the skill.
Please let me know what you think.
Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
- leosmith
- Brown Belt
- Posts: 1353
- Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int) - x 3157
- Contact:
Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
6 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool
- leosmith
- Brown Belt
- Posts: 1353
- Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int) - x 3157
- Contact:
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
Simplified pronunciation guide (Warning – you must use audio with these steps in order to make them effective.). Do steps 1 and 2 before you do anything else but listening.
1. Learn the correct pronunciation of each character in the writing system (it’s ok to use pinyin for Mandarin and kana for Japanese). Learn the correct pronunciation for all phonemes. Learn the correct pronunciation of words.
2. Learn the correct pronunciation of sentences.
3. Maintain good pronunciation by reading out loud and monitoring yourself while conversing.
4. Check your pronunciation from time to time by making recordings and listening to them, pronouncing sentences then comparing that to a native version, getting input from native speakers, etc.
(edit: Because I shot down the 800 hr silent period in another thread, I thought some might want to know what I thought we should be doing. This is just a bare-bones guide; no details on how to do each step are included.)
1. Learn the correct pronunciation of each character in the writing system (it’s ok to use pinyin for Mandarin and kana for Japanese). Learn the correct pronunciation for all phonemes. Learn the correct pronunciation of words.
2. Learn the correct pronunciation of sentences.
3. Maintain good pronunciation by reading out loud and monitoring yourself while conversing.
4. Check your pronunciation from time to time by making recordings and listening to them, pronouncing sentences then comparing that to a native version, getting input from native speakers, etc.
(edit: Because I shot down the 800 hr silent period in another thread, I thought some might want to know what I thought we should be doing. This is just a bare-bones guide; no details on how to do each step are included.)
Last edited by leosmith on Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
2 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool
- reineke
- Black Belt - 3rd Dan
- Posts: 3570
- Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
- Languages: Fox (C4)
- Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
- x 6554
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
How to lessen the negative interference of our learners’ mother tongue on their target language pronunciation
https://gianfrancoconti.wordpress.com/2 ... unciation/
https://gianfrancoconti.wordpress.com/2 ... unciation/
2 x
-
- Blue Belt
- Posts: 952
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:49 pm
- Location: UK
- Languages: English (native). French (studying).
- Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7466
- x 1386
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
Actors learn to control their voices/accents as adults. So I'm sure language learners can too. It would like all things require time to acquire the skill, and concentration to maintain an artificial accent.
4 x
- reineke
- Black Belt - 3rd Dan
- Posts: 3570
- Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
- Languages: Fox (C4)
- Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
- x 6554
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
Effects of hanyu pinyin on pronunciation in learners of Chinese as a Foreign Language Benedetta Bassetti Birkbeck, University of London
Pinyin affects the pronunciation of adult learners of Chinese as a Foreign Language. This is due to the fact that adults are exposed to pinyin from the beginning and that they are already literate in another orthography, but it is also due to characteristics of the pinyin system."
Abstract This paper provides evidence that the hanyu pinyin representation of the phonology of Chinese affects the production of Chinese phonology in instructed learners of Chinese as a Foreign Language. Pinyin generally has a one-to-one correspondence between graphemes and phonemes, but its transcription of some Chinese rimes does not represent the main vowel. As a consequence, learners of Chinese as a Foreign Language have non-target-like phonological representations of Chinese rimes, which in turn lead to non-target-like pronunciations. A hanzi reading-aloud task was used to elicit syllables containing the three rimes /iou/, /uei/ and /uən/ from final-year CFL students. Results show that learners often delete the vowels that are not represented in the pinyin transcription, but they produce the same vowels in the same rimes when the pinyin transcription represents them. It is concluded that the pinyin orthographic input interacts with the phonological input in shaping the phonological representations and pronunciation of Chinese syllables in intermediate as well as beginner CFL learners. Language teachers should therefore be aware of the effects of the pinyin orthography.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... bq2dYB5jag
Conti:
"even if that learner reads a given word aloud following the teacher’s rendition of it, the L1 phonological representation of that word in the learner’s Working Memory will cause interference, with negative consequences for learning."
Pinyin affects the pronunciation of adult learners of Chinese as a Foreign Language. This is due to the fact that adults are exposed to pinyin from the beginning and that they are already literate in another orthography, but it is also due to characteristics of the pinyin system."
Abstract This paper provides evidence that the hanyu pinyin representation of the phonology of Chinese affects the production of Chinese phonology in instructed learners of Chinese as a Foreign Language. Pinyin generally has a one-to-one correspondence between graphemes and phonemes, but its transcription of some Chinese rimes does not represent the main vowel. As a consequence, learners of Chinese as a Foreign Language have non-target-like phonological representations of Chinese rimes, which in turn lead to non-target-like pronunciations. A hanzi reading-aloud task was used to elicit syllables containing the three rimes /iou/, /uei/ and /uən/ from final-year CFL students. Results show that learners often delete the vowels that are not represented in the pinyin transcription, but they produce the same vowels in the same rimes when the pinyin transcription represents them. It is concluded that the pinyin orthographic input interacts with the phonological input in shaping the phonological representations and pronunciation of Chinese syllables in intermediate as well as beginner CFL learners. Language teachers should therefore be aware of the effects of the pinyin orthography.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... bq2dYB5jag
Conti:
"even if that learner reads a given word aloud following the teacher’s rendition of it, the L1 phonological representation of that word in the learner’s Working Memory will cause interference, with negative consequences for learning."
2 x
- leosmith
- Brown Belt
- Posts: 1353
- Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int) - x 3157
- Contact:
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
reineke wrote:How to lessen the negative interference of our learners’ mother tongue on their target language pronunciation
https://gianfrancoconti.wordpress.com/2 ... unciation/
I think recognizing that there won't be a one-to-one, or perhaps any kind of mapping between L1 and L2 pronunciation is sufficient to avoid "language transfer". I'm glad that ideas such as avoiding the written form and having a mute period are being suggested less and less often in my circles.
Pinyin affects the pronunciation of adult learners of Chinese as a Foreign Language.
Yes, I believe all transliteration does. The reason I said it's ok is that there aren't many other choices for learners who aren't yet comfortable with Chinese characters. Once again, you just need to recognize there is no one-to one mapping, and you'll be fine.
0 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool
-
- Blue Belt
- Posts: 952
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:49 pm
- Location: UK
- Languages: English (native). French (studying).
- Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7466
- x 1386
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
I think most people are happy to settle for 'good enough', so they don't attempt to correct errors beyond a certain point. Others strive for continuous improvement.leosmith wrote:But the longer you repeat errors, the harder it is to fix them. I’ve been thinking that there maybe some sort of a cut-of line, or cut off range. For example, if you make the same wrong word selection once in a while for a period of a year or less, it might be quite easy to fix, but if it’s been more than 5 years, it may be impossible. I’ve made these numbers up, and of course I have no hard evidence to support them. Just a theory based on personal experience, things I’ve read and see others experience.
2 x
- smallwhite
- Black Belt - 2nd Dan
- Posts: 2386
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
- Location: Hong Kong
- Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
. - x 4878
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
leosmith wrote:I’ve had two thoughts floating around in my head about pronunciation recently, and ...
Please let me know what you think.
I think those thoughts have been floating around for 10 years now
Only listen!
leosmith wrote:on 06 April 2007 on HTLAL...
I've been hearing more and more about a method where people start learning languages by only listening...
Chanced upon that while looking for listening tips today
6 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.
- jeff_lindqvist
- Black Belt - 3rd Dan
- Posts: 3153
- Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
- Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk - Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
- x 10542
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
smallwhite wrote:I think those thoughts have been floating around for 10 years now
And already on the first page you see a number of familiar names, like leosmith and reineke (and myself).
6 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge:
Ar an seastán oíche:Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain :
Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord
Ar an seastán oíche:
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain :
Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord
- tastyonions
- Black Belt - 1st Dan
- Posts: 1609
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:39 pm
- Location: Dallas, TX
- Languages: EN (N), FR, ES, DE, IT, PT, NL, EL
- x 3999
Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.
You all are the veterans. Back then I was happily monoglot and would remain so for another five years.
3 x
Return to “General Language Discussion”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests