Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:52 pm

leosmith wrote:4. Check your pronunciation from time to time by making recordings and listening to them, pronouncing sentences then comparing that to a native version, getting input from native speakers, etc.


Red colour and bolding mine above-

For me it is not from time to time, it is absolutely utterly and most definitely always. Absolutely any time a syllable of the foreign language comes out of my mouth (and I strive to speak out loud anything written I come across), I'm paying attention to how I produce it. In the beginning, it's individual tricky sounds, then it becomes words, tonic stress, rhythm, sentences and paragraphs, but I still maintain that every syllable I speak is internally checked against my own burned in with hot molten metal pronunciation 'registry', if you will. This internal registry is developed through the pronunciation learning process and checked continuously against recorded audio for tweaks and verficiations, sometimes with native speakers and so on as you suggested above. IPA has helped me a lot with accuracy. I refuse to be lazy about any syllable I utter. The registry is developed throughout the learning experience and must be like play-dough, that is, able to be remolded where necessary (which becomes less common as one perfects the accent).


DaveBee wrote:
leosmith wrote:But the longer you repeat errors, the harder it is to fix them. I’ve been thinking that there maybe some sort of a cut-of line, or cut off range. For example, if you make the same wrong word selection once in a while for a period of a year or less, it might be quite easy to fix, but if it’s been more than 5 years, it may be impossible. I’ve made these numbers up, and of course I have no hard evidence to support them. Just a theory based on personal experience, things I’ve read and see others experience.
I think most people are happy to settle for 'good enough', so they don't attempt to correct errors beyond a certain point. Others strive for continuous improvement.


I agree.
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby Serpent » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:01 pm

I made an appearance on the 7th page too... 3 days and 50+ posts after the thread was started. Aww. :D
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby Uncle Roger » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:58 pm

For languages with a Latin alphabet, I'd go with the following

Pronunciation
1 - Learn the IPA phonemes. There IS a finite number of sounds to a language, of course they might be well into the 50+, but there is not way around learning it

2 - For each IPA phoneme, learn the most important graphemes that can produce it

3 - Find some 3-4 high frequency words that can be examples of each phoneme/grapheme combination.

4 - Obtain a full IPA transcription of the 100 most used words in that language and learn it

5 - It's worth investing some time and money on a proper teacher/scholar to get help in doing all that

Accent
I find this a lot more difficult because it's not as codified as pronunciation. God I wish there was a widespread system to report typical pitch patterns of a language in standard musical notation, but I guess many intervals would be microtonal.
My suggestion here would be basically to try and make an impression. I'd probably ask a native speaker of your target language to reaed out something in your mother tongue with the thickest possible accent of their mother tongue. This should isolate the pitch pattern properly. The biggest step then would be not to be shy I guess and virtually make an impression as if it was some acting thing...
Record, listen, correct.
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby reineke » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:06 pm

I'm 10 years uglier.

Most of these studies were published after 2007. Excuse my French but if people in your circles are moving away from some of these conclusions they are indeed on the bleeping bleeding edge of research:

The Impact of Orthography on L2 Phonolexical Acquisition

The acquisition of L2 sound contrasts is notoriously difficult. ...Difficulty at both the phonetic and phonological/lexical levels...

Unfamiliarity with graphophonological representations causes difficulty in L2 phonological acquisition, at both lexical and sublexical levels of processing. This difficulty may arise from:

depleted attention from the auditory input
–having to establish novel sound-letter correspondences
–unintuitive, arbitrary graphemic representation

Conclusion
• There is more to L2 speech processing than meets the eye. :)
• ...unfamiliar spelling can hinder the acquisition of a phonological contrast in a second language.
• More work is needed to fully understand the interrelationship between orthography and L2 phonological acquisition.

L’influence de l’orthographe dans l’acquisition phonologique du Français Langue Seconde (FLS)

L’apprenant anglophone du FLS doit acquérir
– de nouveaux phonèmes (e.g. /u/-/y/: ‘tout’ – ‘tu’)
– de nouvelles structures syllabiques (e.g. /pn/ ‘pneu’, /ɡn/ ‘gnou’)
Pour cela, il doit se défaire de ses référents phonologiques natifs.

Résultats: Phase d’apprentissage

La présence de l’orthographe ne ralentit (ou n’accelère) pas de façon significative le temps de mémorisation de nouveaux mots étrangers.

L’apprentissage oral du FLS par des anglophones débutants est souvent accompagné de la forme écrite de la langue.
Cette simultanéité des données linguistiques peut ne pas être bénéfique pour les apprenants.

• Implications pour l’enseignement du FLS:
se concentrer d’abord sur les caractéristiques phonologiques du français, avant d’introduire un support écrit,
– fournir des instructions explicites sur les conventions orthographiques du français,
– être conscient que des structures phonologiques, en apparence
similaires, ne sont pas apprises de façon équivalente.

https://sites.google.com/site/liomat22/publications

The influence of foreign scripts on the acquisition of a second language phonological contrast
First Published September 3, 2015

Abstract

Recent studies in the acquisition of a second language (L2) phonology have revealed that orthography can influence the way in which L2 learners come to establish target-like lexical representations (Escudero et al., 2008, 2014; Escudero and Wanrooij, 2010; Showalter, 2012; Showalter and Hayes-Harb, 2013). Most of these studies, however, involve language pairs relying on Roman-based scripts. In comparison, the influence of a foreign or unfamiliar written representation on L2 phonological acquisition remains understudied...The results show that the degree of script unfamiliarity does not in itself seem to significantly affect the successful acquisition of this particular phonological contrast. However, the presence of certain foreign scripts in the course of phonological acquisition can yield significantly different learning outcomes in comparison to having no orthographic representation available. Specifically, the Arabic script exerted an inhibitory effect on L2 phonological acquisition, while the Cyrillic and Roman/Cyrillic blended scripts exercised differential inhibitory effects based on whether grapheme–phoneme correspondences activated first language (L1) phonological units. Besides revealing, for the first time, that foreign written input can significantly hinder learners’ ability to reliably encode an L2 phonological contrast, this study also provides further evidence for the irrepressible hold of native orthographic rules on L2 phonological acquisition[/b].

http://slr.sagepub.com/content/32/2/145.abstract

The Influence of Unfamiliar Orthography on L2 Phonolexical Acquisition
http://hdl.handle.net/10150/337366

Representation of second language phonology

"Orthographies encode phonological information only at the level of words (chiefly, the information encoded concerns phonetic segments; in some cases, tonal information or default stress may be encoded). Of primary interest to second language (L2) learners is whether orthography can assist in clarifying L2 phonological distinctions that are particularly difficult to perceive (e.g., where one native-language phonemic category captures two L2 categories). A review of spoken-word recognition evidence suggests that orthographic information can install knowledge of such a distinction in lexical representations but that this does not affect learners’ ability to perceive the phonemic distinction in speech. Words containing the difficult phonemes become even harder for L2 listeners to recognize, because perception maps less accurately to lexical content."

LEXICAL REPRESENTATION WITHOUT PERCEPTION: HELP OR HINDRANCE FOR THE LEARNER?

In L1, the lexicon and input match: the contrasts that are phonologically represented in the lexicon are those that are perceptually distinguished in the input. However, what we see here is a mismatch between input and lexicon for listeners attempting to acquire these difficult contrasts. What implications follow from this for the learner of an L2?

As described by Escudero (2015 [this issue]), the inclusion in the lexicon of a contrast that is indistiguishable in perception has been viewed in some literature as evidence that orthographic information (the implied source of the distinction) can assist the L2 learner. On the face of it, this seems a plausible interpretation: if the phonemic distinction is lexically coded, then the phonological representations in the learner’s lexicon are more in line with those of native listeners, which is certainly desirable. In addition, distinct lexical representations may prompt listeners to attempt a distinction in speech production, making the L2 speaker (if the attempt is successful) more intelligible to native listeners; and addition of unwanted homophones to the learner’s stored vocabulary can be avoided. Of course, as pointed out above, homophones are not really a problem for any listener in any language, first or second: homophony is the normal currency of vocabularies. Thus, this “help” with homophony is at best of minor usefulness.

However, what if the lexical representation does not match the perceived input?

...a very serious hindrance arises when a distinction that cannot be perceived in the input is incorporated in the lexicon.

...attaining mastery of a confusable L2 distinction would deliver a huge gain for learners perceptually.

In summary, the distinction that has been accurately incorporated in the lexicon, but crucially on the basis not of phonetic perception but of nonspeech information, has created a situation in which mismatch cannot work, and in doing so, it has exacerbated the competition problem in spoken-word recognition rather than alleviating it. L2 learners are doing themselves no perceptual favor at all by incorporating into their lexicon (whether by using information from orthography or from any other source) a distinction that they cannot reliably perceive in the input.

...phonemic repertoire is not the only phonological information that L2 learners must master.

Phonotactic constraints are language-specific also (and L1 phonotactics can interfere with L2 listening even at very high levels of L2 proficiency; Weber & Cutler, 2006). Suprasegmental information such as pitch can be lexically distinctive in one of a speaker’s languages but quite irrelevant for distinguishing between words in another. The phonological shape of words differs across languages, as does lexical
prosody... While alphabetic writing systems provide reasonably good information about phonemic repertoires (especially when grapheme-to-phoneme mappings are highly consistent), the rest of the phonological information that L2 learners need to acquire is hardly available from reading at all. Give or take a few indirect implications and an occasional language that makes certain phonological structures explicit, the natural availability of nonsegmental phonological information in orthography is unimpressive:

1. Sentence prosody: Intonation, focus, and contrastive emphasis can be in part expressed syntactically, but they are principally expressed in suprasegmental dimensions; because they are very largely determined by contextual factors, they vary widely and are essentially never coded orthographically...

2. Lexical prosody: Stress languages do not, in general, incorporate stress in writing, although exceptions may be orthographically marked where general rules account for the majority of stress placements, as in Spanish (note that even then, the number of cases counting as exceptional, and hence receiving such explicit realization, varies across varieties of the language, for example, between European and South American Spanish). L2 learners of English and other Germanic languages, or of Russian, or Arabic, or Indonesian, however, receive not even such partial indications of stress placement. In pitch accent languages such as Japanese, likewise, there is no orthographic coding of accent patterns.

3. Phonotactics: Some phonotactic constraints can be inferred from the available orthographic symbols in explicitly syllabic orthographies such as Korean, or the kana orthographies of Japanese, but in alphabetic orthographies, especially those with higher degrees of opacity, again there is no orthographic support for learning.

4. Casual speech processes: In informal speech, speakers reduce, delete, or assimilate sounds that may be explicitly articulated in more formal registers, and again, none of this is ever encoded in formal writing (though novelists occasionally use “eye dialect” to represent some aspects of casual speech, such as syllable deletion, or assimilation as in doncha for don’t you; and some processes also turn up in text messages, the driving force there, however, being space saving, not verisimilitude).

In summary, very little information about phonology is available in written text.

Listeners whose L1 does not have lexical stress are known to experience great difficulty encoding and recalling stress patterns... L2 learners from such backgrounds also perform poorly on tests of stress mastery in their L2 even when they can accurately perceive an equivalent nonlinguistic contrast... Conversely, listeners whose L1 is another stress language are able to perceive and store the stress patterns of their L2, even if the L1 and L2 stress placement rules differ...

None of this suggests that L2 learners can expect much true and lasting help from recourse to orthography in their quest to master an L2 phonology. Obviously mastering the orthography of an L2 is necessary for full use of the language, and it relationships between words, appreciating morphological structure, and more...In both L1 and L2, lexical representations are abstracted from input evidence, and every aspect of such a representation that has as its source other than spoken input must be solely based on abstract knowledge.

In conclusion, using orthography or other abstract speech-external information to incorporate a distinction into lexical representations certainly works. However, the side effects of gaining the distinction solely in such a way, without perceptually attainable support, are added competition, and hence processing delay in word recognition, which can be quite inimical to learners’ progress in their L2."

http://www.mpi.nl/publications/escidoc-1868203
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby Elenia » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:26 pm

DaveBee wrote:I think most people are happy to settle for 'good enough', so they don't attempt to correct errors beyond a certain point. Others strive for continuous improvement.


I am one of the 'good enough' people. I correct my pronunciation if I am made to realise I've made a mistake. I'll correct/modify my accent if others struggle to understand me/have difficulty conversing with me, or if it sounds unpleasant to my own ear.

I don't believe it's impossible to change old, cemented pronunciation mistakes. I spent a decade or so of my life completely mispronouncing the word 'colonel' and longer saying 'gesture' with a hard 'g'. Once the error was pointed out to me, I eradicated it without to much difficulty. The only trace I have of the previous, erroneous pronunciation is that now whenever I say 'gesture' I remember that I used to say it wrong and backtrack to make sure I have pronounced it correctly - but this is done after the fact. Maybe I slip up every now and again without noticing it, but I get it right more often than not. I have mispronounced a lot of (common) English words in my time, probably because I read a lot and didn't hear as many words as I learnt. There are some words which I probably still mispronounce and definitely words that I stress incorrectly, but as soon as I receive correction I am able to implement it without much stress or thought.

Of course, corrections may be harder if the mispronunciations are the rule rather than the exception, but I don't think they would ever become 'impossible'.
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby reineke » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:17 pm

P is for Pronunciation

"Most of my ‘teaching’ of pronunciation was reactive – a case of responding to learners’ mispronunciations with either real or feigned incomprehension. There are only two pron-focused lessons that I can remember feeling good about.. "

"As a second language learner, any attempts to improve my pronunciation have fallen (almost literally) on deaf ears."

I remember being told by a well-intentioned Spanish teacher: “Your problem is that you use the English ‘t’ sound instead of the Spanish one”. To which I replied, “No, the ‘t’ sound is the very least of my problems! My problem is that I don’t know the endings of the verbs, that I don’t have an extensive vocabulary, that I can’t produce more than two words at a time. … and so on”. That is to say, in the greater scheme of things, the phonetic rendering of a single consonant sound was not going to help me become a proficient speaker of Spanish. Nor was it something I would be able to focus any attention on, when my attention was so totally absorbed with simply getting the right words out in the right order. And nor, at the end of the day, would I ever be able to rid myself of my wretched English accent, however hard I tried (assuming, of course, I wanted to).

Hence, I’m fairly sceptical about the value of teaching pronunciation, and I suspect that most of the exercises and activities that belong to the canonical pron-teaching repertoire probably have only incidental learning benefits...

Certain learners (a small minority, I suspect) with good ears and a real motivation to “sound like a native speaker” might just squeeze some benefit out of a pron lesson, but for the majority it will probably just wash right over them.

In An A-Z of ELT, I hint obliquely at these doubts – doubts which I claim are justified by research studies. What studies?

Well, here’s one for starters. In an early attempt to tease out the factors that predicted good pronunciation, Suter (1976) co-opted a panel of non-specialist informants to assess the pronunciation of 61 English learners from a range of language backgrounds and with different histories of exposure and instruction. Twelve biographical factors were found to correlate with good pronunciation, and, in a subsequent re-analysis of the data (Purcell and Suter 1980), these were reduced to just four. These four predictors of acceptable pronunciation were (in degree of importance):

- the learner’s first language (i.e., all things being equal, a speaker of, say, Swedish is more likely to pronounce English better than a speaker of, say, Vietnamese)
- aptitude for oral mimcry (i.e. ‘having a good ear’)
- length of residency in an English-speaking environment
- strength of concern for pronunciation accuracy"
...
https://scottthornbury.wordpress.com/20 ... unciation/

I is for Intelligibility

I phoned my Spanish internet provider the other day and tried to explain a problem I was experiencing. Clearly, I was unintelligible because the operator immediately switched me to an English-speaking operator. Even then, I had trouble getting my message across, because I didn’t know how to say ‘tráfico de datos’ in English. Was I again being unintelligible, or simply incomprehensible?

Put another way, if you’re having trouble understanding someone, it may be a case of not recognizing what they’re saying (likely their fault), or not knowing what they mean (probably your fault), or not knowing what their intention is (could be anyone’s fault). Going back to my exchange on the phone, I can sort of apply these distinctions, but I’m also wondering if accentedness was the reason why I was switched to the English-speaking operator, since the first operator made no attempt even to negotiate some sort of understanding. (Mercifully, in a subsequent conversation with yet another operator, I was actually congratulated on my Spanish – probably because, although heavily accented, I was intelligible. Or do I mean comprehensible?)"

https://scottthornbury.wordpress.com/20 ... igibility/
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby DaveBee » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:22 pm

Elenia wrote:
DaveBee wrote:I think most people are happy to settle for 'good enough', so they don't attempt to correct errors beyond a certain point. Others strive for continuous improvement.


I am one of the 'good enough' people. I correct my pronunciation if I am made to realise I've made a mistake. I'll correct/modify my accent if others struggle to understand me/have difficulty conversing with me, or if it sounds unpleasant to my own ear.

I don't believe it's impossible to change old, cemented pronunciation mistakes. I spent a decade or so of my life completely mispronouncing the word 'colonel' and longer saying 'gesture' with a hard 'g'. Once the error was pointed out to me, I eradicated it without to much difficulty. The only trace I have of the previous, erroneous pronunciation is that now whenever I say 'gesture' I remember that I used to say it wrong and backtrack to make sure I have pronounced it correctly - but this is done after the fact. Maybe I slip up every now and again without noticing it, but I get it right more often than not. I have mispronounced a lot of (common) English words in my time, probably because I read a lot and didn't hear as many words as I learnt. There are some words which I probably still mispronounce and definitely words that I stress incorrectly, but as soon as I receive correction I am able to implement it without much stress or thought.

Of course, corrections may be harder if the mispronunciations are the rule rather than the exception, but I don't think they would ever become 'impossible'.
One argument I've heard for native accent is peer group identification.

I think the example was (WW2) immigrant children typically acquired a native accent below age x, older children having good/perfect language skills but a foreign accent.

The hypothesis being that the older children identified themselves as hungarian/french/polish etc, while the younger children saw their native playmates as their peer group, and identified with them, conforming to their pronunciation.

EDIT
Tim Keely's 2016 speech Sounding like a native speaker touches on this, [19min54s into video].
Last edited by DaveBee on Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby leosmith » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:31 pm

smallwhite wrote:I think those thoughts have been floating around for 10 years now :P

Anti-ALG thoughts, yes. The 2 thoughts I was actually referring to, no.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
leosmith wrote:4. Check your pronunciation from time to time by making recordings and listening to them, pronouncing sentences then comparing that to a native version, getting input from native speakers, etc.


Red colour and bolding mine above-

For me it is not from time to time, it is absolutely utterly and most definitely always.

I think that was under 3.
leosmith wrote:3. Maintain good pronunciation by reading out loud and monitoring yourself while conversing.
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby spanglish » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:34 am

leosmith wrote:I’ve had two thoughts floating around in my head about pronunciation recently, and I wanted to see what forum members think about them. As far as second language skills go, I think it’s special, and here’s why.

1) Adult learners rarely if ever achieve native-like pronunciation in foreign languages. For all other skills, while not easy, it appears to be far more common to reach a native-like level.
2) Fossilized pronunciation errors seem to be more resistant to reversal than errors in other skills.

Someone on this board once said they don’t believe in fossilized errors, and asked if you’re just starting to learn a language, how can your errors be fossilized? It’s a good point, and I think the mind is quite plastic in the beginning stages of learning, meaning it’s not terribly difficult to reverse errors. But the longer you repeat errors, the harder it is to fix them. I’ve been thinking that there maybe some sort of a cut-of line, or cut off range. For example, if you make the same wrong word selection once in a while for a period of a year or less, it might be quite easy to fix, but if it’s been more than 5 years, it may be impossible. I’ve made these numbers up, and of course I have no hard evidence to support them. Just a theory based on personal experience, things I’ve read and see others experience.

For me, pronunciation seems to be the most sensitive skill. The plastic period seems shorter. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that being diligent about correct pronunciation from the beginning will allow you to achieve a near-native like level. I’m just saying that failure to do it will keep you from reaching your highest possible level in the skill.

Please let me know what you think.



I think that the technique of Luca Lampariello that comes to pronounce each syllable of a word is the key.




  it would also help too if there were audios of native speakers pronouncing words and phrases slowly
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Re: Pronunciation – it’s a delicate skill.

Postby Uncle Roger » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:20 am

I know it wouldn't be enough for me. The way I work, sound by itself is a completely whimsical thing. Whilst a written /ç/, or a written /æ/ is something that allows me to identify that sound better or more easily anyway.
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