Cultural Appropriation?

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Aria
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Cultural Appropriation?

Postby Aria » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:56 pm

I only just heard of cultural appropriation recently and I feel a bit disheartened by it. I never would've thought that people would find a love of languages, culture and people to be something strange or offensive.

Do you think it's hard to find language partners/friends online in the languages you're studying because of it? I'm interested in a lot of languages and cultures and two of the more obscure languages I wanted to study are Scottish Gaelic and a Native American language due to my heritage.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby Serpent » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:16 pm

I've been reluctant to approve your post, especially as you're new to the forum.

Please keep it strictly language-related and don't discuss whether cultural appropriation is real, or the thread will be locked.

When it comes to heritage languages, an internalized sense of inferiority is a much bigger problem and a major reason why people don't pass minority languages on.

Feelings are not necessarily rational. People sometimes *want* to be excited about someone's interest in their language, or feel like they "should" be grateful... but the historical/emotional/social baggage can make this a mess.
As language learners we shouldn't expect every native speaker to appreciate our effort, and we should respect their feelings. In many cases there are other people who feel differently and want to encourage you.

We should also bear in mind how many people's interest is quick, casual and fleeting. By all means, if you're curious about a minority language, use the resources out there to explore it. But once you start interacting with native speakers, don't make them feel obliged to help you, especially for free.

When it comes to the endangered languages, it's important to understand that you can't save it. Only the local community can. Put aside your saviour complex. (This also applies to "helping" spread the language, like making inaccurate youtube videos, creating your own teaching materials or translating a text for someone's tattoo - often incorrectly)
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby galaxyrocker » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:20 pm

I have to say, I haven't encountered any cases of people upset that I'm learning their language. But, again, I've always interacted with the community itself and learned from them a lot. Plus, Irish is in an odd case as everyone in the Irish education system is forced to learn it... But I do know of at least one Native American group that let their language die with them instead of letting linguists document it because it was sacred to them; and the Hopi are serious about not wanting non-Hopi (even other Native Americans, such as the Navajo, IIRC) to learn their language.

TO me, it's really the call of the speech community as a whole, and, while often they can't stop someone, it's best to be respectful of their wishes.

Wit regards to what Serpent said about heritage languages, I think practicality and not having knowledge of linguistics is a bigger issue than inferiority. A recent immigrant who moves to America, for instance, knows that their kids need to learn English, so they try to speak it to them to help their kids get ahead, not realizing that they'll likely pick that up in school if they're young enough and get the Mayan/Spanish language (most hispanic kids around here don't speak Spanish natively!) at home and among that community.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby Serpent » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:37 pm

Yeah maybe this wasn't the best wording, I had to post a response quickly :)
Practical issues do go hand in hand with considering your native language inferior or less important though. I agree that misconceptions about bilingualism are another major factor.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby Aria » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:24 pm

Thanks for the responses :) This term is new to me so I'm still kind of confused about it. I guess what I'm really wondering is if I'll have anybody to talk to in the languages I want to study? Not as a way to actually start learning the language, I'd use resources for that. I've never been able to bring myself to talk with natives in French even (besides a few times on a French forum) since I don't feel I'm advanced enough for conversation. I know many people start talking almost immediately but I feel silly.

To me, part of the fun of learning a language is learning about the culture through it and talking with "different" people. I put different in quotes because I've heard that it can be kind of offensive to act as if someone's language/culture is cool or exotic, but I don't mean it in a bad way. Just a 'different walk of life' way.

For instance, I've always had an interest in British culture and enjoy hanging out on animal related forums (animals are my passion) that are UK based. I enjoy seeing how things are different there etc. I've never been made to feel like I don't belong because I'm American. But now reading about cultural appropriation I feel a bit uncomfortable at the thought of interacting with people in the languages I'm studying/plan on studying. I'm hoping as long as I'm polite most people would be polite too, even if they have mixed feelings?
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby Speakeasy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:44 pm

In certain milieux, cultural appropriation has generated sufficient "white heat" to fill the world's energy needs well into the next century. For this reason, although I wouldn't mind debating the matter (preferably amongst civilized friends), I do not see how one could do so without yielding a rapid and serious infringement of the Forum Rules ... perhaps even this statement has just done so!
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby galaxyrocker » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:20 pm

Serpent wrote:When it comes to the endangered languages, it's important to understand that you can't save it. Only the local community can. Put aside your saviour complex. (This also applies to "helping" spread the language, like making inaccurate youtube videos, creating your own teaching materials or translating a text for someone's tattoo - often incorrectly)



I must've missed this when writing my first reply, but I stand 100% behind this. The number of people whose interest in Irish is, at best, fleeting and new-agey (one person, for instance, calls it the "language of my soul"... and she's Australian) does much more harm to the language. Especially because these people are 100% certain they can save it, and that them learning the basics -- they never get very far or in-depth, even if they "spend" a lot of time learning -- can save the language. I've also found that if you were to draw a Venn Diagram between these people and the ones who think that DL can save the language, it's pretty much a circle. All at the expense of the native speaker community -- in fact, some learners of Irish never interact with native speakers in the Gaeltacht, or listen to them, etc. preferring the non-natives with highly-Anglicized Irish ("Neo-Irish", is the best way to describe it) that they can understand instead of the natives. But they believe they're saving the language by doing this from America, or Australia, etc.

We should also bear in mind how many people's interest is quick, casual and fleeting. By all means, if you're curious about a minority language, use the resources out there to explore it. But once you start interacting with native speakers, don't make them feel obliged to help you, especially for free.


Something else Irish learners need to get in their head. So many think that just by virtue of learning Irish, all natives should interact with them regardless of the effort the native has to put in to understand or how the native feels, etc. And as soon as that native mentions money, the whole "But I'm helping to save your language!" or "you get grants from the government" (meaning, the Gaeltacht) phrases start...
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby Serpent » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:11 pm

I tried to do a quick edit to my (mostly) mod post, but obviously it wasn't quick enough :) You didn't overlook this part, it just wasn't there :D

Thanks, I'm glad you agree with my evaluation :) One point maybe needs to be reiterated. Of course you (general you) should make an effort not to be like the learners I described... but you should also bear in mind that you know how serious you are. The natives don't. You may have to prove your seriousness, especially by using the existing resources to learn on your own. And depending on the person (and language) it may be really hard or impossible to prove. Sometimes you just have to move on.

By DL do you mean distance learning?
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galaxyrocker
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby galaxyrocker » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:19 pm

Serpent wrote:
By DL do you mean distance learning?


Duolingo actually.
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Aria
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Re: Cultural Appropriation?

Postby Aria » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:21 pm

I thought the soul thing was just an expression to express how deeply you feel about something or connect to it. Despite being human, I often think a certain species of animal or a certain pet is my "soul animal".

I can see that it's annoying when people think they can save a language. That's not how I feel about it though. I'm just interesting in learning and in languages. I don't see that there's anything wrong with dabbling either though..

I guess a lot depends on the learner's attitude and mindset...still trying to wrap my head around this...it all just seems very negative to me. I get that people can't help how they feel, that's fine, but... I guess I thought people wouldn't mind speaking to you no matter what nationality you are. Demanding money in return for speaking with someone seems so weird? Unless it's a tutor.
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